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Calvinism and Arminianism are Each Partially Right

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ivdavid

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davidtaylorjr said:
The evil that happened to Joseph was obviously within God's perfect plan. It was part of His will.
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Luk 22:42 saying, “Father, if you are willing [2], remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will [1], but yours, be done.”

As John Piper differentiates, there are 2 different words in the original texts that are translated as the same word "will". This is best distinguished as God's desire (will1) and God's counsel (will2), their relation seen in Eph 1:11. These are also termed God's perfect/preceptive/prescriptive Will [1] and God's permissive/decretive Will [2] respectively.

The evil that happened to Joseph was within God's plan/counsel/will[2]. Was it God's desire/will[1] though? Even calvinism holds that God's desires are not always fulfilled which God has so counselled as per His preceding sovereign purposes.

Arminians keep pointing to God's will [1] not being fulfilled at times and Calvinists keep pointing to God's will [2] always coming to pass and there's simply semantic talking past each other unless we identify the exact Will we're each referring to.
 
George Antonios

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
Every spirit and soul in the lake of fire, from Lucifer on down to the basest man, will be there because they thwarted God's will for them, which was not-to-sin/be-saved:

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

It's not a question of man being "stronger" than God. It's a question of God giving man free will when it comes to salvation.

This is only controversial because it doesn't fit Calvinistic philosophy. Calvinism wrests those scriptures to limit them to the heirs of an imaginary eternal decree unto salvation only because it seeks to help God reach its own level of understanding by pointing you to him what he really meant.
He doesn't need your help. God said we can thwart his will. In his sovereignty, he limited certain aspects of his own sovereignty. God doesn't need your help to save the glory of his power. Relax. Sit down.

Not only that, but every time you and I sin, we thwart God's will. That's what sin is by definition: thwarting God's will. If you couldn't thwart God's will, you couldn't be a sinner. I can't believe that we even have to discuss this.
 
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Yeshua1

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George Antonios said:
Every spirit and soul in the lake of fire, from Lucifer on down to the basest man, will be there because they thwarted God's will for them, which was not-to-sin/be-saved:

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

It's not a question of man being "stronger" than God. It's a question of God giving man free will when it comes to salvation.

This is only controversial because it doesn't fit Calvinistic philosophy. Calvinism wrests those scriptures to limit them to the heirs of an imaginary eternal decree unto salvation only because it seeks to help God reach its own level of understanding by pointing you to him what he really meant.
He doesn't need your help. God said we can thwart his will. In his sovereignty, he limited certain aspects of his own sovereignty. God doesn't need your help to save the glory of his power. Relax. Sit down.

Not only that, but every time you and I sin, we thwart God's will. That's what sin is by definition: thwarting God's will. If you couldn't thwart God's will, you couldn't be a sinner. I can't believe that we even have to discuss this.
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All humans save for jesus are born sinners, so they just do not have the means within themselves to get saved!
 
Reynolds

Reynolds

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Yeshua1 said:
we are not puppets of God, as we are all still accountable to him for our choosing to be sinners, and for continuing to reject His offer to save us thru Christ Jesus!
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Putting my Calvinist hat on, How can you reject an irresistable calling? If you reject the offer, you never had the true offer because you had no calling. Had you received the call, you would have had accepted it.
 
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Yeshua1

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Reynolds said:
Putting my Calvinist hat on, How can you reject an irresistable calling? If you reject the offer, you never had the true offer because you had no calling. Had you received the call, you would have had accepted it.
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A valid offer is made out from God to have all lost sinners repent and turn to Jesus to get saved, but the lost keep on rejecting god, as they prefer darkness to light!
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Yeshua1 said:
then we also can lose our salvation!
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Yes. If Prevenient grace was true, then the possibility of loosing our salvation might then be God's will ... or God might reserve His assurance until after we had made our choice by granting the "new heart" AFTER salvation and applying the grace to choose to our decision to climb into His hand or not.

I am not arguing that it is scriptural, there are others who believe it to do that. I am merely pointing out that it is internally logical and not self-contradictory. Free Will Salvation may be incorrect, but it is not a "married bachelor" (a logical impossibility).
 
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Yeshua1

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atpollard said:
Yes. If Prevenient grace was true, then the possibility of loosing our salvation might then be God's will ... or God might reserve His assurance until after we had made our choice by granting the "new heart" AFTER salvation and applying the grace to choose to our decision to climb into His hand or not.

I am not arguing that it is scriptural, there are others who believe it to do that. I am merely pointing out that it is internally logical and not self-contradictory. Free Will Salvation may be incorrect, but it is not a "married bachelor" (a logical impossibility).
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The consistent logical free will grace Christian would have to include then chance to really lose their salvation.
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Reynolds said:
Without "irresistible grace" and "unconditional election", how can the sinner repent.
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(Good question).

They cannot.
There is no SINGLE PREDESTINATION. Calvinists need to make peace with the fact that if salvation is 100% about God choosing some, then the inescapable consequence of God not choosing a fallen man is that that man will not be saved. Romans claims that is the right of the Potter.

The sinner, for his part, has no cause to plead "ignorance" as an excuse or to "cry foul" at some perceived injustice. If someone is unaware that they have a God who is owed respect, it is a deliberate ignorance of their own making (It was for me ... I refused to see the evidence). If anyone is unaware that they need to treat others "right" it is because they have seared their conscience. We do wrong because we want to do wrong and we choose to do wrong. All divine punishment for wrong is JUSTICE. All salvation is unmerited GRACE. All deserve Justice and none deserve Grace. However God is still the only one that decides to whom God will grant His GRACE.
 
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Yeshua1

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atpollard said:
They cannot.
There is no SINGLE PREDESTINATION. Calvinists need to make peace with the fact that if salvation is 100% about God choosing some, then the inescapable consequence of God not choosing a fallen man is that that man will not be saved. Romans claims that is the right of the Potter.

The sinner, for his part, has no cause to plead "ignorance" as an excuse or to "cry foul" at some perceived injustice. If someone is unaware that they have a God who is owed respect, it is a deliberate ignorance of their own making (It was for me ... I refused to see the evidence). If anyone is unaware that they need to treat others "right" it is because they have seared their conscience. We do wrong because we want to do wrong and we choose to do wrong. All divine punishment for wrong is JUSTICE. All salvation is unmerited GRACE. All deserve Justice and none deserve Grace. However God is still the only one that decides to whom God will grant His GRACE.
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God has the right to do this, does he not?Many seem to see it as Him being unfair, and not right!
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Yeshua1 said:
The consistent logical free will grace Christian would have to include then chance to really lose their salvation.
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Not necessarily.
Hypothetical ... we hear the Gospel and choose to follow Jesus, just like the disciples of John the Baptist heard John call out and followed Jesus to see where he was staying. That is a human FREE WILL CHOICE to follow Jesus. THEN, only after we have made our choice, does God give us a new heart with his laws written on it. At this point, we can also receive the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance. Based on our CHOICE, we have become Jesus Sheep and the Good Shepherd will come and bring us home if we ever go astray. Thus a person can REFUSE to become a Christian, but a Christian cannot undo the adoption once it is sealed with the Holy Spirit.

As I said ... there is no logical inconsistency in the argument, just a different Ordo Salutis for the verses in Scripture. That is why we need to disagree with respect.
 
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Yeshua1

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atpollard said:
Not necessarily.
Hypothetical ... we hear the Gospel and choose to follow Jesus, just like the disciples of John the Baptist heard John call out and followed Jesus to see where he was staying. That is a human FREE WILL CHOICE to follow Jesus. THEN, only after we have made our choice, does God give us a new heart with his laws written on it. At this point, we can also receive the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance. Based on our CHOICE, we have become Jesus Sheep and the Good Shepherd will come and bring us home if we ever go astray. Thus a person can REFUSE to become a Christian, but a Christian cannot undo the adoption once it is sealed with the Holy Spirit.

As I said ... there is no logical inconsistency in the argument, just a different Ordo Salutis for the verses in Scripture. That is why we need to disagree with respect.
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True, yet still find it hard to see how those bound up in sin and serving their sin natures can now "just decide" to obey God!
 
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