Calvinism and Arminianism foreknowledge compared with respect to time

[Derf]

This is a limited topic--not about all aspects of Calvinism and Arminianism, but only about how foreknowledge is viewed with respect to time.

I encourage disagreement with my suppositions, but please give me a reason and a replacement supposition for each one you oppose.

1. Calvinism's view of foreknowledge is that God knows the future because He ordains it.
2. Arminianism's view of foreknowledge is that God can see into the future, and thus knows the future.

Let's talk about #2 first. Assuming that God can look into the future requires that the future be fixed. Thus, if God sees something in the future that He wants to change, He cannot, else the future is not fixed. God thus becomes subservient to this fixed future--I'd liken it to the Greek Fates. Since we don't believe God is subservient to anything outside Himself, this view is incompatible with a Sovereign God, and thus it points us toward the first view.

#1 requires that in order to know the future, God has to manufacture it--He has to set it up from the very beginning, and thus, rightfully, God can be said to be sovereign. But it comes at a price. Here's why:

If God determines all the future, then every decision ever made by any creature of God is attributable to God. This has to be the case, because God would have determined all choices before any of the creatures were created. He can't look into a fixed future to find out how anyone will behave, as that's Arminianism. Thus, in order to know everything that anyone and everyone will choose to do in the future He is in the process of fixing, He determines it purely on the basis of His own pleasure.

Thus all sins anyone ever has or will commit is God's pleasure. The problem with this is that God is the author of sin--there's no one else around when the determination was made, so there's no one else to blame it on--it was decided before anyone else existed.

I'd appreciate your thoughts!
Derf

 

[Dave G]

1. Calvinism's view of foreknowledge is that God knows the future because He ordains it.

That depends upon the subject, but as far as I am aware, the Bible does not teach that God foreordains sin.

However, He can and does foreordain that one will be saved and the other left to His righteous judgment.

2. Arminianism's view of foreknowledge is that God can see into the future, and thus knows the future.

To me, that is the definition of "foreknowledge" that those who do not believe or understand what Jeremiah 1:5 states, impose upon the word "foreknew" in Romans 8:29-30.

From my perspective, instead of trusting that God's word alone defines and gives more detail to itself, people often bring in outside definitions in order to help explain "problem passages".
In the case of "foreknew", they look at the Greek and see how it is translated, instead of believing God's definition of it.

For example:

" Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." ( Jeremiah 1:5 ).

" But if any man love God, the same is known of him." ( 1 Corinthians 8:3 ).

" For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully [and] wonderfully made: marvellous [are] thy works; and [that] my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there] was none of them." ( Psalms 139:13-16 ).

It's an intimate knowledge, not one of simply knowing a person's actions.
That is God "knowing" His children.

Other passages:

Isaiah 49:1-5.
Galatians 1:15.
2 Timothy 2:19.

 

[Dave G]

#1 requires that in order to know the future, God has to manufacture it--He has to set it up from the very beginning, and thus, rightfully, God can be said to be sovereign.

Tentatively I agree.

But it comes at a price.

OK...

If God determines all the future, then every decision ever made by any creature of God is attributable to God.

But that is not what His word says.

This has to be the case, because God would have determined all choices before any of the creatures were created. He can't look into a fixed future to find out how anyone will behave, as that's Arminianism.

Agreed.
To me it is "Arminianism" in the modern sense, which is basically Roman Catholic "Molinism".

The short version is that man cooperates with God in gaining His everlasting favor, i.e. salvation from His wrath.
That a man's belief or unbelief of the Gospel are what determine our destiny.

Thus, in order to know everything that anyone and everyone will choose to do in the future He is in the process of fixing, He determines it purely on the basis of His own pleasure.

I see the Bible teaching that eternal life, which is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ) is given to those whom He chooses, and it is all according to His will ( Ephesians 1:4-6 ), not ours ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ).
It is based on His mercy and grace alone ( Titus 3:5-6 ), and He decides who to show His mercy and compassion to, and who not to ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ).

Therefore, salvation truly is "of the Lord".

Thus all sins anyone ever has or will commit is God's pleasure.The problem with this is that God is the author of sin--there's no one else around when the determination was made, so there's no one else to blame it on--it was decided before anyone else existed.

As I see it, this is where our own understanding breaks down and we must cast ourselves upon Him and His word alone for the answers to any subject.
Scripture tells us that God is not, nor ever has been, the Author of sin.

See James 1:13-15.

 

[MartyF]

This is a limited topic--not about all aspects of Calvinism and Arminianism, but only about how foreknowledge is viewed with respect to time.

First, I need to state that Calvinism is based on Classical Theism. Classical Theism gets its name from the “Classics” - Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, etc. As such, Classical Theism reinterpretes the Bible to support its viewpoints. Classical Theism is a purely human construct.

I really can’t discuss one aspect of Classical Theism detached from the other parts. It would be like discussing reproduction without ever discussing sperm. In addition, I will be discussing the Calvinism of John Calvin - not any personal brand others may be using.

Second, Arminianism has become a term used to describe many different beliefs. However, most rely on “mystery”. Basically they can’t answer all of the questions regarding their metaphysics so they say the unanswerable is simply part of God’s mystery.

1. Calvinism's view of foreknowledge is that God knows the future because He ordains it.

Your use of jargon completely obfuscates what John Calvin believed. Calvinists believe God has eternal, non-generated, non-discursive knowledge.

Eternal means that God has all knowledge from the beginning. He cannot ever add to his knowledge. For example, God can’t write a new song.

Non-generated means that God obtains all knowledge from himself. Humans, angels, other aspects of God’s creation cannot provide God with new knowledge. This means that God cannot respond to prayer and does not actually listen to prayers as a human being would respond to someone or listen to someone.

Non-discursive means that God cannot know things by knowing other things. Basically, God can’t use logic to learn new things.

This is what Calvinists mean by ominiscient.

#1 requires that in order to know the future, God has to manufacture it--He has to set it up from the very beginning, and thus, rightfully, God can be said to be sovereign.

Not quite. In Calvinism, God creates everything and all times in one simply action. God knows the future because he already made it happen.

In Calvinism, God does not have to manufacture the future in order to know it. Remember, God’s knowledge is eternal. At no point did God gain new knowledge.

If God determines all the future, then every decision ever made by any creature of God is attributable to God. This has to be the case, because God would have determined all choices before any of the creatures were created. He can't look into a fixed future to find out how anyone will behave, as that's Arminianism. Thus, in order to know everything that anyone and everyone will choose to do in the future He is in the process of fixing, He determines it purely on the basis of His own pleasure.

Thus all sins anyone ever has or will commit is God's pleasure. The problem with this is that God is the author of sin--there's no one else around when the determination was made, so there's no one else to blame it on--it was decided before anyone else existed.

First, Calvinists believe God has already created the future all the way to eternity. God is not continually creating the future, he made everything and all times and the entire future in one simple action. God’s knowledge is eternal. God never gains knowledge.

You need to be careful with your wording when describing the Calvinist position. Calvinists believe everything is done by God. Yes, a Calvinist believes that God personally murders a million babies through abortion every year. However, Calvinists also believe that the humans doing the abortions are responsible. Even though God causes all the despicable actions of humans, God is not held responsible for these actions!

John Calvin quotes Augustine. God’s motivation is different from man’s motivation therefore he is innocent. Even though God’s action and the human’s action are the same, God’s motivation is pure and therefore God is innocent. You can read it yourself in Calvin’s letter “No Mere Permission”.

Let's talk about #2 first. Assuming that God can look into the future requires that the future be fixed. Thus, if God sees something in the future that He wants to change, He cannot, else the future is not fixed. God thus becomes subservient to this fixed future--I'd liken it to the Greek Fates.

An Arminian would argue that God was able to choose his actions just like we are able to choose our actions. God just knows what choices he and we will make ahead of time.

Since we don't believe God is subservient to anything outside Himself, this view is incompatible with a Sovereign God, and thus it points us toward the first view.

Now you are mixing theologies and obfuscating with indeterminate words like “sovereign”. This causes innumerable problems.

Just like a Calvinist doesn’t believe God is subservient to the future he created, an Arminian doesn’t believe God is subservient to the future he knows about.

 

[Barry Johnson]

That depends upon the subject, but as far as I am aware, the Bible does not teach that God foreordains sin.

However, He can and does foreordain that one will be saved and the other left to His righteous judgment.

To me, that is the definition of "foreknowledge" that those who do not believe or understand what Jeremiah 1:5 states, impose upon the word "foreknew" in Romans 8:29-30.

From my perspective, instead of trusting that God's word alone defines and gives more detail to itself, people often bring in outside definitions in order to help explain "problem passages".
In the case of "foreknew", they look at the Greek and see how it is translated, instead of believing God's definition of it.

For example:

" Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." ( Jeremiah 1:5 ).

" But if any man love God, the same is known of him." ( 1 Corinthians 8:3 ).

" For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully [and] wonderfully made: marvellous [are] thy works; and [that] my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there] was none of them." ( Psalms 139:13-16 ).

It's an intimate knowledge, not one of simply knowing a person's actions.
That is God "knowing" His children.

Other passages:

Isaiah 49:1-5.
Galatians 1:15.
2 Timothy 2:19.

Why would you assume everyone one has the same experience as Jeremiah?

 

[Barry Johnson]

This is a limited topic--not about all aspects of Calvinism and Arminianism, but only about how foreknowledge is viewed with respect to time.

I encourage disagreement with my suppositions, but please give me a reason and a replacement supposition for each one you oppose.

1. Calvinism's view of foreknowledge is that God knows the future because He ordains it.
2. Arminianism's view of foreknowledge is that God can see into the future, and thus knows the future.

Let's talk about #2 first. Assuming that God can look into the future requires that the future be fixed. Thus, if God sees something in the future that He wants to change, He cannot, else the future is not fixed. God thus becomes subservient to this fixed future--I'd liken it to the Greek Fates. Since we don't believe God is subservient to anything outside Himself, this view is incompatible with a Sovereign God, and thus it points us toward the first view.

#1 requires that in order to know the future, God has to manufacture it--He has to set it up from the very beginning, and thus, rightfully, God can be said to be sovereign. But it comes at a price. Here's why:

If God determines all the future, then every decision ever made by any creature of God is attributable to God. This has to be the case, because God would have determined all choices before any of the creatures were created. He can't look into a fixed future to find out how anyone will behave, as that's Arminianism. Thus, in order to know everything that anyone and everyone will choose to do in the future He is in the process of fixing, He determines it purely on the basis of His own pleasure.

Thus all sins anyone ever has or will commit is God's pleasure. The problem with this is that God is the author of sin--there's no one else around when the determination was made, so there's no one else to blame it on--it was decided before anyone else existed.

I'd appreciate your thoughts!
Derf

I think the issue is starting with philosophy rather than what the bible actually says . The whole mess of Calvernism v Arminism ( which they both stem from the same pot After Beza , then Jacob Arminius . But Jacob doesnt fully let go of his Calvernism. ) We dont start with the will we start with the Bible and what God says in his word . Both views and determinism and Foreknowledge are based on the faulty view on Election taking place in eternity past .

 

[Barry Johnson]

That depends upon the subject, but as far as I am aware, the Bible does not teach that God foreordains sin.

However, He can and does foreordain that one will be saved and the other left to His righteous judgment.

To me, that is the definition of "foreknowledge" that those who do not believe or understand what Jeremiah 1:5 states, impose upon the word "foreknew" in Romans 8:29-30.

From my perspective, instead of trusting that God's word alone defines and gives more detail to itself, people often bring in outside definitions in order to help explain "problem passages".
In the case of "foreknew", they look at the Greek and see how it is translated, instead of believing God's definition of it.

For example:

" Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." ( Jeremiah 1:5 ).

" But if any man love God, the same is known of him." ( 1 Corinthians 8:3 ).

" For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully [and] wonderfully made: marvellous [are] thy works; and [that] my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there] was none of them." ( Psalms 139:13-16 ).

It's an intimate knowledge, not one of simply knowing a person's actions.
That is God "knowing" His children.

Other passages:

Isaiah 49:1-5.
Galatians 1:15.
2 Timothy 2:19.

Galations 4 . 8 and 9 clears up the issue . We are ' Known ' of God after we are saved . That's it .simple. The whole issue is believing the error that ' Election ' is to salvation and this must in some sense have taken place in eternity past. which is false

 

[Barry Johnson]

Galations 4 . 8 and 9 clears up the issue . We are ' Known ' of God after we are saved . That's it .simple. The whole issue is believing the error that ' Election ' is to salvation and this must in some sense have taken place in eternity past. which is false

The ' God does not ordain sin ' comes from the Westminster confession .

 

[Dave G]

Why would you assume everyone one has the same experience as Jeremiah?

Because David did in Psalms 139.

 

[Dave G]

The ' God does not ordain sin ' comes from the Westminster confession .

I wouldn't know, as I haven't read the Westminster Confession.

 

[Dave G]

We are ' Known ' of God after we are saved .

Romans 8:29-30 tells me that I was foreknown.

 

[Dave G]

The whole issue is believing the error that ' Election ' is to salvation and this must in some sense have taken place in eternity past. which is false

According to Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, Psalms 65:4 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 election to salvation took place long before I was born.

God decided to have me placed into Christ from the foundation of the world, and that is what makes it so very special to me...
That God, in His grace and kindness to me as a vile sinner, would not only decide to look in my direction, but actually reserve me unto Himself and an eternal relationship with Him and His Son.

That being chosen in Christ then became a reality within my lifetime, when I heard the preaching of the cross in 1978, and believed on Christ for the forgiveness of my sins.

 

[Derf B]

That depends upon the subject, but as far as I am aware, the Bible does not teach that God foreordains sin.

However, He can and does foreordain that one will be saved and the other left to His righteous judgment.

Does he? each and every one? If so, then on what basis does he decide that? If he decides to save some particular persons, and each of those persons WILL believe, confess His name, and call Him Lord, does that person do it under compulsion (God's will overcoming a sinful man's will), or does he do it of his own free will (a sinful man repenting and submitting his will to God's)?

If the former, then 1. is God really desiring that all men be saved, and 2. is there any point to the whole creation-plus-sin experience, since God could have created people to do His will without allowing any sin in the first place?

If the latter, how then does God know ahead of time what that person will choose?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Because David did in Psalms 139.

was that before the womb or After ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

was that before the womb or After ?

Like I said before. John the baptist had the Holy spirit in the womb , does that mean every single person has the Holy spirit from the womb ?

 

[Derf B]

That depends upon the subject, but as far as I am aware, the Bible does not teach that God foreordains sin.

However, He can and does foreordain that one will be saved and the other left to His righteous judgment.

Does he? each and every one? If so, then on what basis does he decide that? If he decides to save some particular persons, and each of those persons WILL believe, confess His name, and call Him Lord, does that person do it under compulsion (God's will overcoming a sinful man's will), or does he do it of his own free will (a sinful man repenting and submitting his will to God's)?

If the former, then 1. is God really desiring that all men be saved, and 2. is there any point to the whole creation-plus-sin experience, since God could have created people to do His will without allowing any sin in the first place?

According to Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, Psalms 65:4 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 election to salvation took place long before I was born.

God decided to have me placed into Christ from the foundation of the world, and that is what makes it so very special to me...
That God, in His grace and kindness to me as a vile sinner, would not only decide to look in my direction, but actually reserve me unto Himself and an eternal relationship with Him and His Son.

That being chosen in Christ then became a reality within my lifetime, when I heard the preaching of the cross in 1978, and believed on Christ for the forgiveness of my sins.

If the latter, how then does God know ahead of time what that person will choose?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Does he? each and every one? If so, then on what basis does he decide that? If he decides to save some particular persons, and each of those persons WILL believe, confess His name, and call Him Lord, does that person do it under compulsion (God's will overcoming a sinful man's will), or does he do it of his own free will (a sinful man repenting and submitting his will to God's)?

If the former, then 1. is God really desiring that all men be saved, and 2. is there any point to the whole creation-plus-sin experience, since God could have created people to do His will without allowing any sin in the first place?



If the latter, how then does God know ahead of time what that person will choose?

Proof texting..literally none of those texts mean you were chosen to be saved before you were born ( This is Augustine whether you like it or not ) nor were you chosen before you were born to be saved by looking down the corridors of time . Both of these schemes stem from Augustine .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Does he? each and every one? If so, then on what basis does he decide that? If he decides to save some particular persons, and each of those persons WILL believe, confess His name, and call Him Lord, does that person do it under compulsion (God's will overcoming a sinful man's will), or does he do it of his own free will (a sinful man repenting and submitting his will to God's)?

If the former, then 1. is God really desiring that all men be saved, and 2. is there any point to the whole creation-plus-sin experience, since God could have created people to do His will without allowing any sin in the first place?



If the latter, how then does God know ahead of time what that person will choose?

The only way we are saved is when we believe the Gospel . There is no such thing as irresistible or Previenint grace . This is Augustines gnostic influence on christianity.

 

[Derf B]

According to Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, Psalms 65:4 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 election to salvation took place long before I was born.

God decided to have me placed into Christ from the foundation of the world, and that is what makes it so very special to me...
That God, in His grace and kindness to me as a vile sinner, would not only decide to look in my direction, but actually reserve me unto Himself and an eternal relationship with Him and His Son.

"Look in your direction"? What direction was that before the world was created? If He decided He was going to look in your direction before you came along, then He would either
1. have to arrange all of the events leading to your existence, as well as your response to His call, from the foundation of the world (Calvinisim's view of foreknowledge), or
2. have to know all of the events that were going to unfold including your conception and birth and your belief in Christ from the foundation of the world (Arminianism's view)

If the first, that has to include all of the potentially sinful acts over the generations (imagine that at least one of your ancestors was raped resulting in procreation of the next generation of your ancestors), as well as all of your sinful acts both before and after your conversion.

If the second, God is looking at a crystal ball, of sorts, seeing what has already been decreed, I guess (though not by Him, since in this scenario God is not a Calvinist). This has the very unfortunate consequence of making God subject to someone/something else.

But in neither of the cases does the man have anything to do with his eternal destiny, since it is determined before he was born. I know this is a problem for Arminianism, since it shows it (the theological system) to be internally inconsistent.

It is an even greater problem for Calvinism, because it shows GOD to be internally inconsistent.

 

[Derf B]

The only way we are saved is when we believe the Gospel . There is no such thing as irresistible or Previenint grace .

If there were, then it seems like we are then saved by something besides the death of Jesus Christ.