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Calvinism and Deathbed Conversions

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Pastor_Bob

Pastor_Bob

Well-Known Member
Martin Marprelate said:
Only if you ignore John 6:39. 'This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing but raise it up at the last day.'
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How do you then explain that some of them which came to Jesus turned back again?
John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. (KJV)

Or, the fact that one of them was clearly not saved?
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? (KJV)

And, before you say, "The Father didn't give Judas to Jesus; Jesus choose Judas Himself" consider John 17:12:

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (KJV)

So, either verse 39 does not mean what you think it means or else Jesus was mistaken about losing none of them.

This all ties in with my initial assertion that the drawing is conditional based upon our believing.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (KJV)
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
MB said:
For your reading pleasure;
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Is this biblical?
Remember Jesus the Father and the Holy Spirit are all the same God.
MB
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Yes, but I hope you know the word men is not found in the original Greek there. It is a supplied word. And, if you look at the context you will see that just before the Greeks were coming to Christ. So all men there, which is actually only all in the original, is referring to all people groups, not all individuals.
 
M

MB

Well-Known Member
davidtaylorjr said:
Yes, but I hope you know the word men is not found in the original Greek there. It is a supplied word. And, if you look at the context you will see that just before the Greeks were coming to Christ. So all men there, which is actually only all in the original, is referring to all people groups, not all individuals.
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I am aware what Italics mean. When all is by it's self it is all inclusive.
MB
 
M

MB

Well-Known Member
davidtaylorjr said:
Of all people groups Jews and Gentiles yes. Not all individual people. Context matters.
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But you brought up the word individual. I've always believed this means all are included. Not just some to keep heaven from being over crowded. LOL
 
L

loDebar

Well-Known Member
How can you be so right and so wrong in the same sentence?. men is added but it certainty does not change the meaning but reinforces. if not added, if I be from the earth all will draw unto me is what it says
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
loDebar said:
How can you be so right and so wrong in the same sentence?. men is added but it certainty does not change the meaning but reinforces. if not added, if I be from the earth all will draw unto me is what it says
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Again, the context of the passage matters and you are ignoring it.

MB said:
If you believe Jesus Is in reality God and you read Jn 12:32 who said it?
Your denial doesn't make any sense. If we can't believe the scriptures, what good are they?
MB
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I'm not denying anything. You are not using proper interpretation by looking at the actual context of the verse. Text without context is a pretext.
 
M

MB

Well-Known Member
Pastor_Bob said:
And, before you say, "The Father didn't give Judas to Jesus; Jesus choose Judas Himself" consider John 17:12:
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How is it you see a difference between God and Jesus when they both are in absolute agreement. Did or did not Jesus say;

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Judas could not have come to Jesus in the first place if he were not given by the Father. The rich young ruler could not have come to Jesus either, Nicodemus could not have come. Many that came and were not saved because of unbelief they could not have come. They all missed their chance to live for ever.
MB
 
M

MB

Well-Known Member
davidtaylorjr said:
Again, the context of the passage matters and you are ignoring it.



I'm not denying anything. You are not using proper interpretation by looking at the actual context of the verse. Text without context is a pretext.
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You are wrong David. I've read this chapter many many times. Try reading the whole chapter, better yet the whole book of John and you'll see that this verse means exactly what it clearly says. You are avoiding the truth. If you can't believe what the gospel really says what's the use?
MB
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Pastor_Bob said:
How do you then explain that some of them which came to Jesus turned back again?
John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. (KJV)
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It never says that these were converted disciples. We need to be careful about reading things that are not there.

Pastor_Bob said:
And, before you say, "The Father didn't give Judas to Jesus; Jesus choose Judas Himself" consider John 17:12:
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He gave Judas to Jesus on EARTH for a specific purpose.

Pastor_Bob said:
So, either verse 39 does not mean what you think it means or else Jesus was mistaken about losing none of them.
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No, Jesus does not lose any of the elect that are drawn by the Father.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
MB said:
You are wrong David. I've read this chapter many many times. Try reading the whole chapter, better yet the whole book of John and you'll see that this verse means exactly what it clearly says. You are avoiding the truth. If you can't believe what the gospel really says what's the use?
MB
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What are the preceding verses in the passage speaking of? By the way, I am VERY versed in the book of John. It is the book I specialized in.
 
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