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Featured Calvinism and OSAS

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Actually I don't "need to ignore" Eph 2:8-10 or Matt 18 or Matt 6 so that I can cling to OSAS "anyway" -- because I don't happen to accept the man-made tradition of OSAS.

    But that aside - the question here is whether Calvinism survives if it is found that when paying attention to the Bible details in Matt 18 and Matt 6 (as well as many other places in scripture) - OSAS does not survive acceptance of the Bible.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #21 BobRyan, Dec 9, 2013
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

    [FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


    Matt 6

    12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
    13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
    14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

    15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

    Apparently - the mere quote of the text gives rise to your strong objection to it.

    Your argument is "with the text".

    1. Paul said "I do all things for the sake of the Gospel that I may be a fellow partaker IN IT... I buffet my body AND make is my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified".

    The answer is "no I do not think Paul was delusional" -- obviously.


    2. Paul said "you have fallen from Grace you have been severed from Christ" Gal 5:4 to some of the saints in Galatia.

    The answer is "no I do not think Paul was delusional" -- obviously.


    And of course there is always that new thread on Romans 11.
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=90647

    But as for the decision to ignore close study of certain details in Matt 18 and Matt 6 because one fears for OSAS --

    Surely no one here goes for the wild notion that to warn some one of danger is to ensure they fall prey to that danger.

    Surely that is not the case here.

    in any case - I am not asking that you agree with the Bible over OSAS on this thread - I am simply asking that in the event that the Bible turns out to be true and the man-made tradition of OSAS happens to not survive the decision to pay close attention to Bible details in places like Matt 18 and Matt 6 -- does Calvinism survive if OSAS does not?

    If so -- how?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #22 BobRyan, Dec 9, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 9, 2013
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I would infer that by the part that I bolded, you do not now believe the Bible is true??
     
    #23 DHK, Dec 9, 2013
  4. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    BobRyan,

    To answer you OP, yes if the doctrine you refer to OSAS is undermined then so is Calvinism, however that doesn't make it right or wrong.

    I have some questions for you. Do you believe in Regeneration? Do you believe that once we genuinely believe and confess that we are born again?

    What affects do you believe regeneration will have on a person? Do you believe that someone who has truly be regenerated, forgiven and set free would refuse to forgive another? If so, what proof do we have of their being regenerated in the first place?
     
    #24 Skandelon, Dec 9, 2013
  5. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    My argument is not with the text. My argument is with people who read something into a text that is not there making the Word of God conflict with itself. You quote those passages endlessly Ryan but have yet to show in what way they cause one whom God saved from the "lake of fire", through the Sacrificial death of Jesus Christ, to be cast again into the "lake of fire"! The reason you do not is that you cannot. Your mind has been warped by the false doctrine of salvation by works.


    If you are trying to argue that Paul is teaching that one can lose their salvation you are delusional. You are cherry picking again Ryan. Consider what Paul was teaching in Galatians. From Chapter 1 we read:

    6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    Paul is addressing the issue caused by some Jewish Christians who were teaching that Gentiles had to be circumcised and obey the law in order to be saved; that the Grace of God was insufficient. You are preaching the same false gospel that the Jewish Christians were teaching the Galatians.

    In Chapter 4 the Apostle returns to this issue and is rebuking those in Galatia who thought that after being saved "by the Grace of God" they had to obey the law to be saved, just as you are trying to convince the unlearned ones who might listen to you. Now consider the passage from Chapter 5.


    1. Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
    2. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
    3. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
    4. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
    5. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
    6. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

    Paul is not teaching that anyone can lose their salvation by striving to be justified by works. He is simply saying they are ignoring what the Grace of God gave them and wanting to add works to the Grace of God which Paul has already called a false gospel. So you see, Ryan, based on what Paul tells us in Galatians you are teaching a false gospel but I expect you know that. You did read what Paul says about these people in Galatians 1 didn't you?

    You keep harping on Romans 11. Consider what Paul tells us in Romans:

    Romans 9:30-33; 10:1-4
    30. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
    31. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
    32. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
    33. As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    10:1.Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
    2. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
    3. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
    4. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

    Israel attempted to be justified by the law and could not. Gentiles were justified by Grace through Faith, the only way justification is possible. Luther, as a Roman Catholic priest, struggled with this problem for years but came to understand that justification is by faith alone and thus the Reformation was born. People like you are trying to convince the foolish and unlearned that justification/salvation is by works.

    You keep harping on Romans 11. Consider how Paul introduces this Chapter.

    1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
    3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
    4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
    5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
    6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    Paul here gives a ringing endorsement of the Doctrines of Election and of Grace. {I am assuming you can understand.} And again in a passage I have called to your attention earlier from Chapter 8:

    28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    So you see Ryan, Salvation is the work of God alone, not of sinful man; to teach otherwise is blasphemy.



    Romans 11 has nothing to do with God casting back into the "lake of fire" those for whom Jesus Christ died and that is a fact.
     
    #25 OldRegular, Dec 9, 2013
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    That is true. It appears that Calvinism would not stand without OSAS.

    But as you say - that fact alone would not make OSAS or Calvinism wrong.

    But it might explain why the Arminian position that accepts the fact that OSAS does not survive texts like Matt 18 and Matt 6 - is one of the ultimate examples of the Arminian POV.

    Yes the 'New Birth" -- "If anyone is in Christ He is a new creation - old things passed away".


    Yes part of the Gospel statement of Christ in John 3.


    I believe that someone who is born again is faced with the struggle of Romans 7. I believe they find victory in that struggle via the Holy Spirit solution presented in Romans 8.

    This is why Paul describes it this way in 1Cor 9 "I do all things for the sake of the Gospel that I might be a fellow partaker IN IT... I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others i myself should be disqualified".


    The person that is born again - may live a saintly life for 20 years and then later decide that a certain event makes forgiving others no longer easy or acceptable. That would be tragic according to Christ in Matt 18.

    He says "So shall My Father do to each one of you IF you do not forgive...".

    The king in the example Christ gives -- says "I forgave you ALL of that debt".

    His argument is from an experience of salvation and full forgiveness and the fact that the one fully forgiven now has the right basis such that we should expect him/her to forgive others.

    Hence the problem for OSAS --

    The OSAS version of Matt 18 might go like this "And obviously that servant could not help but forgive others their debts against him - since he had been forgiven a so much greater debt and had fully experienced the release and joy that brings".

    There is no doubt that we have the motivation to forgive others - but the sinful nature remains with the one who is a saint - we now have TWO natures. And as Romans 7 states - they are at war with each other.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #26 BobRyan, Dec 9, 2013
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

    [FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


    Matt 6

    12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
    13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
    14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

    15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

    Apparently - the mere quote of the text gives rise to your strong objection to it.

    Your argument is "with the text".


    I look forward to actual evidence in your posts that your claim is true in real life.

    You play a word game that is not justified "in the text".

    Because in the actual text - the unforgiving servant is fully forgivEN and is only cast into the prison and given to the tormentors once -- not twice as the word-puzzle you present would have the reader believe.

    In vs 25 the King does not turn him over to tormentors - rather he "commands" that the servant and all he has "be sold" - the command is given - but they are not yet sold.

    The servant sees that the decree is against him and pleads for mercy - and finds it. In fact he finds full forgiveness "I forgave you ALL that debt" and as we see in the text that yes indeed he was forgiven the debt.


    Though you may have insults and name-calling reserved for me because I dare to pay attention to the Bible details even in a case where they do not confirm the tradition of OSAS - i can assure you that simply making ad hominem remarks against me - is not a compelling sola scriptura response to the problem for OSAS.


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #27 BobRyan, Dec 9, 2013
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Indeed those are the wild claims and accusations of the OSAS POV - but the point is to see if it has Bible support. And the texts above indicate that it does not survive a careful review of scripture.

    To know with accuracy what is in Romans 11 you have to be willing to look at the details. That is what is going on - in that Romans 11 discussion thread.
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=90647

    in Chirst,

    Bob
     
    #28 BobRyan, Dec 9, 2013
  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Ryan has posted the Verses from Matthew 18 and 6 seven times in a total of 28 posts. Is that a new record?:sleep::sleep::sleep::sleep:
     
    #29 OldRegular, Dec 9, 2013
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    2. Paul said "you have fallen from Grace you have been severed from Christ" Gal 5:4 to some of the saints in Galatia.

    The answer is "no I do not think Paul was delusional" -- obviously.



    Indeed. The Gentiles were not even commanded to be circumcised in the OT - this was just Jewish man-made tradition.

    Also interesting - Gal 3:7-8 points out that the ONE GOSPEL (and there is only ONE) of Gal 1:6-9 was "preached to Abraham"..

    It is the ONE GOSPEL - of BOTH the NT and the OT.




    You only "quote you" for Gal 4 - so you leave nothing for actual discussion from the chapter.

    Going on to your actual Bible quotes for Gal 5




    NKJV -
    4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

    NASB

    4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


    Gal 3

    3 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?



    Gal 5

    7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough

    1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
    Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".

    John 14:15 "IF you love Me KEEP My Commandments".
    That is the claim of OSAS - that is not holding up in Gal 5:4

    NKJV -
    4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

    NASB

    4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


    You cannot follow Paul statement by inserting "Paul is not saying" and then quote him. I think we both agree on that point.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #30 BobRyan, Dec 9, 2013
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Indeed the "ONE Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 -- preached to Abraham according to Gal 3:7-8 is the ONE Gospel of the OT and NT.


    And providing a thread where you can discuss the "details".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #31 BobRyan, Dec 9, 2013
  12. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Why should I spend my valuable time trying to prove you don't understand Scripture. You believe the false doctrine of SDA. It is still a free country! Perhaps you are like E-7 and believe "free will" is king?
     
    #32 OldRegular, Dec 9, 2013
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Your time may be too valuable to spend looking at the "Bible details" in Romans 11 - but you did spend a few seconds on it - so I added your comments to the Romans 11 thread.

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=90647

    ================

    OldRegular made a comment about the chapter recently.

    Paul points out that a FEW "individuals" do not fall "There is a remnant".

    The question many in the OSAS camp are ignoring on this thread --

    "look at vs 16 and 17 and ask the question

    who is Paul speaking about -- being "Fellow partakers" and "grafted in together"?

    The lost or the saved?"

    And quoted these two short verses.

    [FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
    17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
    [/FONT]
    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #33 BobRyan, Dec 9, 2013
  14. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Read what Paul says Ryan. God has not cast away His elect Jews, those chosen to salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world.
    1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
    4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

    I can't believe that you are illiterate. The remnant Paul is talking about are the elect Jews. Initially he mentions the 7000 in the Northern Kingdom who had not worshiped Baal.

    Then Paul brings us to his time:


    5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
    6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    The remnant according to the election of Grace include the eleven Apostles, the 3000 saved at Pentecost, and Paul himself. All saved through the Grace of God!

    In this passage Paul also gives a ringing endorsement of the Doctrines of Election and of Grace. If you can't understand that then God have mercy on you!
     
    #34 OldRegular, Dec 10, 2013
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The election is based on foreknowledge. Another great stopping point for Calvinism.

    God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
     
    #35 BobRyan, Dec 10, 2013
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
    3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
    4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
    5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant     according to the election of grace.





    1. In the text above - Elijah tries to make the case that it is the NATION that is the subject. But GOD says that INDIVIDUALS who choose the Gospel are the focus. Vs2.

    Paul says it is the SAME today - that in the Jewish nation there is a faithful remnant of INDIVIDUALS.

    2. The question many in the OSAS camp are ignoring on this thread --

    "look at vs 16 and 17 and ask the question

    who is Paul speaking about -- being "Fellow partakers" and "grafted in together"?

    The lost or the saved?"

    And quoted these two short verses.

    [FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
    17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,


    Clearly the text speaks to INDIVIDUAL saved Gentiles grafted in with the REMNANT of faithful INDIVIDUALS in the Jewish nation.

    Impossible to miss - which is why what comes next in Romans 11- disproves OSAS in Romans 11.

    I think we can all agree that "Bible details matter" even if they go against popular tradition.

    in Christ,

    Bob
    [/FONT]
     
    #36 BobRyan, Dec 10, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 10, 2013
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    [FONT=&quot]17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were[/FONT][FONT=&quot] grafted in among them[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and became [/FONT][FONT=&quot]partaker with them[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of the rich root of the olive tree,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]Rom 11[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
    14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
    17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
    21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.[/FONT]
     
    #37 BobRyan, Dec 10, 2013
  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Ryan

    God has not and will not cast aside His elect among Israel. God has not and will not cast aside His elect among the Gentiles. God has not and will not cast aside His elect, those for whom Jesus Christ died. That is the teaching of Scripture whether you believe it or not!
     
    #38 OldRegular, Dec 10, 2013
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.
     
    #39 BobRyan, Dec 10, 2013
  20. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I have given them to you repeatedly. You simply choose to ignore them. But:

    Jews/Israel [Post 34 above]

    All mankind [post # 19 above}

    Do you understand what "chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world" means Ryan?

    Do you understand what "adoption and obtained an inheritance" means Ryan?

    Do you understand what "sealed with the Holy Spirit" means Ryan?
     
    #40 OldRegular, Dec 10, 2013
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