Calvinism and OSAS

[BobRyan]

The case for OSAS is made "by inference" not by direct Bible proof. For example does "sealed" mean "sealed against your will-- no longer able to choose?" Does "adoption mean - no way to leave the family the way Adam left?"

Thus when a testing chapter comes up - like Romans 11 - where individuals are being saved and individuals are losing salvation - the only real way to get OSAS to survive the text - is to avoid it.

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[FONT=&quot]17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were[/FONT][FONT=&quot] grafted in among them[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and became [/FONT][FONT=&quot]partaker with them[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of the rich root of the olive tree,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Rom 11[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.[/FONT]

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The good new for those who cannot show that OSAS would survive Matt 18 or Matt 6 or Romans 11 is that in the case of this particular thread - all one needs to do is admit that Calvinism would not survive if OSAS fails the test of scripture in Matt 18 and Matt 6.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[OldRegular]

The case for OSAS is made "by inference" not by direct Bible proof. For example does "sealed" mean "sealed against your will-- no longer able to choose?" Does "adoption mean - no way to leave the family the way Adam left?"

I have given them to you repeatedly. You simply choose to ignore them. But:

Jews/Israel [Post 34 above]

Read what Paul says Ryan. God has not cast away His elect Jews, those chosen to salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world.
1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

I can't believe that you are illiterate. The remnant Paul is talking about are the elect Jews. Initially he mentions the 7000 in the Northern Kingdom who had not worshiped Baal.

Then Paul brings us to his time:


5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The remnant according to the election of Grace include the eleven Apostles, the 3000 saved at Pentecost, and Paul himself. All saved through the Grace of God!

In this passage Paul also gives a ringing endorsement of the Doctrines of Election and of Grace. If you can't understand that then God have mercy on you!

All mankind [post # 19 above}

You are still peddling the nonsense that the passages from Matthew 18 and Matthew 6 teach that God has kicked His child by adoption, for whom Jesus Christ died, out of the fold. You are cherry picking Scripture and then assuming it states something it doesn't.

And just how many times can this fictitious person be saved and kicked out? Only once or each time he sins? Is there no limit?

As I have said before you really should consider all Scripture. you might read what the Apostle Paul says about the Security of the Believer giving himself as an example:

2 Timothy 1:12. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Now was the Apostle Paul delusional?

Is God so weak that He cannot keep that which He chose and which Jesus Christ purchased for Him by His sacrifice on the cross? Meditate on the following Scripture and then in a year or so?????

Ephesians 1:3-14
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14.Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

You refuse to understand what "chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world" means Ryan?

You refuse to understand what "adoption and obtained an inheritance" means Ryan?

You refuse to understand what "sealed with the Holy Spirit" means Ryan?

It is not because you can't understand. It is because you refuse to believe that God will keep those Chosen in Jesus Christ and Redeemed by Jesus Christ. Instead you prefer to believe as E-7 blasphemously posted that the "will of man is King" not God.

You believe that God is not mighty to save. {Isaiah 63:1} You refuse to believe that: The gospel of Christ: ... is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.{Romans 1:16}

 

[BobRyan]

If you want to accuse me of something you have to quote me... you cannot "quote you" or "quote someone else" and put my name on it. I think we both know that is true.


So what it is that "I am saying" here?

1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


1. In the text above - Elijah tries to make the case that it is the NATION that is the subject. But GOD says that INDIVIDUALS who choose the Gospel are the focus. Vs2.

Paul says it is the SAME today - that in the Jewish nation there is a faithful remnant of INDIVIDUALS.


[FONT=&quot]17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were[/FONT][FONT=&quot] grafted in among them[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and became [/FONT][FONT=&quot]partaker with them[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of the rich root of the olive tree,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Rom 11[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.[/FONT]

=======================================

The good new for those who cannot show that OSAS would survive Matt 18 or Matt 6 or Romans 11 is that in the case of this particular thread - all one needs to do is admit that Calvinism would not survive if OSAS fails the test of scripture in Matt 18 and Matt 6.

 

[OldRegular]

Ryan it appears that you place more confidence in those who founded the SDA than you do the Bible. If you choose to live your life not knowing from one minute to the next whether God has kicked you out of His family and abandoned you to your just deserts so be it!

 

[BobRyan]

Oh good there is mention of interest in "the Bible" I am glad to see that ..


Here is "the Bible" mentioned in the OP.

If these Bible texts on forgiveness revoked turn out to be true --


Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Then does Calvinism fall for those who accept these verses?

 

[BobRyan]

You refuse to understand what "chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world" means Ryan?

Chosen via foreknowledge - Romans 11 "God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew."

You refuse to understand what "adoption and obtained an inheritance" means Ryan?

The child of God - like Adam - had free will - still has free will today and as Adam could choose to fall - apparently so can the saints today.

In fact Jesus warns the saints about the problem of "Forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18 and Matt 6.


Romans 11

1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


1. In the text above - Elijah tries to make the case that it is the NATION that is the subject. But GOD says that INDIVIDUALS who choose the Gospel are the focus. Vs2.

Paul says it is the SAME today - that in the Jewish nation there is a faithful remnant of INDIVIDUALS.

Romans 11 deals with individual salvation - and warns those who are saved "who stand by their faith" that they should "fear... for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you".

The very thing OSAS would predict - is not supposed to happen.

in Christ,

Bob