Calvinism and the origin of evil

[DHK]

These people, if they could go back in time, would inform God of his error. They would say, "No, God, you cannot PLAN for there to be EVIL. That would make you unloving."

And if they could be successfull in persuading God to their way of thinking they would have him build a universe where he could never bestow saving grace, where he could never show the awesome depths of his love by giving his Son on the cross, where his son would never receive so much as a PEEP of praise forever for being willing to die for sinners and redeem them.

Thank God He ignores these people. Thank God.

The truth of the matter is, He has never ignored anyone. God sent his son with an undying selfish love to die for the sins of all mankind, for he loved each and every one. He never ignored them, not even one. To say that he would ignore one individual based on one's theology is the height of arrogance.

God decreed that Christ would die for the sins of mankind before the foundation of the world. He was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. He also knew that mankind would fall; that Adam would rebel against Him inspite of all his love toward him, and that sin nature would pass on to the rest of mankind. That did not diminish his love toward mankind.

He knew what He would do before hand, according to his own planning; his own omniscience. He would send his Son. He would pay the penalty for the sins of the world, that all who would believe in him would be saved. It does not take correct theology for that to happen. It does not take Calvinism for that to happen.

However, God never decreed for evil men to do evil things. Evil men chose to do evil out of their evil hearts. Jesus himself stated as much.
"Out of an evil heart comes evil things."
It is our choice to do evil. It is our choice to receive or reject Christ. No one forces us, not even the Holy Spirit. Grace is resistible. Stephen stated that it was so. One can resist the Holy Spirit and not be saved. The choice is theirs to make. God does not coerce anyone into salvation. He gives them a choice to make. They, with their own faith, must make that decision. God does not make it for them.

 

[quantumfaith]

Some people would correct God concerning his plan for the universe.

Some people think God got it wrong when God planned a world filled with suffering and evil.

These people, if they could go back in time, would inform God of his error. They would say, "No, God, you cannot PLAN for there to be EVIL. That would make you unloving."

And if they could be successfull in persuading God to their way of thinking they would have him build a universe where he could never bestow saving grace, where he could never show the awesome depths of his love by giving his Son on the cross, where his son would never receive so much as a PEEP of praise forever for being willing to die for sinners and redeem them.

Thank God He ignores these people. Thank God.

This ONLY what YOU say about these people, only YOU.

 

[Amy.G]

I'm still waiting on scripture saying God stopped holding up Satan which caused his rebellion.

(I know it won't come cause it ain't there) :laugh:

 

[Luke2427]

And often confessions come with a page of definitions for terms they use to describe things like 'decrees' such as a definition for the word 'ordain." What is wrong with me asking you to clarify your view Luke? Why are making this SOOO difficult. I would say its like "pulling teeth" but teeth have never been this hard to get out!!!!

Just define the terms bro. I admit whatever you said, you gave confessional statements and I sought further clarity, ok?


About solder's killing in war? That is the right motive and right means, so what? My contention was those who have right motive but wrong means, remember?

Killing in battle is not evil by anyone's definition. Killing an innocent man is evil, which you regularly argue that God did, but for right motives making it not evil. My first question was why do you go through the trouble of the domino explanation if motive is all that really matters? Why not just say, God did push the dominos but for a good motive and be consistent?

No. The abortion anecdote did not prove your point.

The man's motive was evil. That evil might have been the result of ignorance, but his motive was evil nonetheless.

A deed is not good or evil in and of itself.

Motive makes it good or evil. It is from the heart that evil comes.

Sin is from the heart. It is NOT from the deed.

It is that which comes OUT of a man that defiles him.

Sin is about MOTIVE.

We are at an impasse until we can get on the same page on this one.

My next post will have definitions for you.

 

[Luke2427]

I'm still waiting on scripture saying God stopped holding up Satan which caused his rebellion.

(I know it won't come cause it ain't there) :laugh:

Hebrews 1:3- Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Romans 11:36 "For of him and through him and to him are all things."

Colossians 1- "HE is before all things and by him all things consist..."

If something falls it is because God stopped holding it up.

 

[Skandelon]

No. The abortion anecdote did not prove your point.

The man's motive was evil.

There is no way to know for sure a person's motive, and for the sake of the analogy we can even suppose the man is a believer and thus has the ability to have good motives. For the sake of the analogy I'm supposing that his motive is purely to stop the killing of innocent unborn babies, there is no reason to suppose otherwise. For you to dismiss that as a possibility begs the question, thus forcing you to prove that it is impossible for a man to have a pure motive while still choosing the wrong means.

My next post will have definitions for you.

Yippee! :wavey:

 

[Luke2427]

The decree of God is His eternal purpose, according to His will, whereby He has foreordained whatever comes to pass.

 

[Luke2427]

There is no way to know for sure a person's motive, and for the sake of the analogy we can even suppose the man is a believer and thus has the ability to have good motives. For the sake of the analogy I'm supposing that his motive is purely to stop the killing of innocent unborn babies, there is no reason to suppose otherwise. For you to dismiss that as a possibility begs the question, thus forcing you to prove that it is impossible for a man to have a pure motive while still choosing the wrong means.



Yippee! :wavey:

But the motive to stop the killing of unborn babies is not necessarily a good one.

It is most CERTAINLY not a good one if it entails the unauthorized execution of another human being.

Whether the person's motive is skewed because of ignorance or contempt or whatever else- his motive is evil.

Please explain why it is honorable to violently kill 50 people on a battlefield and evil to do the exact same thing in a neighborhood.

What is the difference?

Answer this and I will supply the definition for "ordain".

 

[Winman]

Luke said;

Sin is about MOTIVE.

That is simply not true. If I lie to make someone feel good, it is a lie nonetheless. I gave the example of going over to someone's house for dinner, the dinner was not good. The host asks how you liked the dinner and you say you enjoyed it because you did not want to hurt their feelings. Your motive is good, but it is a lie nonetheless.

I could rob a bank and claim it was to pay for an operation that my child needed or else he would die. That is a good motive, but it would still be a crime for me to rob that bank.

Fact is, many people have tried to use good motives as a defense in trials for crimes they have committed. It rarely succeeds.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke said;



That is simply not true. If I lie to make someone feel good, it is a lie nonetheless. I gave the example of going over to someone's house for dinner, the dinner was not good. The host asks how you liked the dinner and you say you enjoyed it because you did not want to hurt their feelings. Your motive is good, but it is a lie nonetheless.

I could rob a bank and claim it was to pay for an operation that my child needed or else he would die. That is a good motive, but it would still be a crime for me to rob that bank.

Fact is, many people have tried to use good motives as a defense in trials for crimes they have committed. It rarely succeeds.

It is not a lie if you did not intend to deceive.

Jesus said that it is what comes OUT of a man that defiles him.

Sin is from the heart.

Deeds are not persons. Deeds cannot be good or evil.

Only persons can be good or evil.

 

[Amy.G]

It is God who determines what a lie is. We are not capable because of our flesh to determine a pure motive. We must go by what God says and not what we think is right.


A lie is a lie regardless of motive and God forbids it. He never said a lie is ok if your "motive" is good.


Murder for example.
Do I need to post scripture to prove that the taking of life in war is not sin? Or that to take a life defending oneself or others is not sin? It is murder that is sin. God never says anything about "motive".

 

[Winman]

It is not a lie if you did not intend to deceive.

Jesus said that it is what comes OUT of a man that defiles him.

Sin is from the heart.

Deeds are not persons. Deeds cannot be good or evil.

Only persons can be good or evil.

Having a good motive does not make sin good.

John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Jesus told his disciples there would come a time when men would kill them and believe they were serving God. Their motive is good, they believe they are killing false teachers that corrupt God's word. Saul (Paul) comes to mind here, he sincerely believed he was serving God when he persecuted Christians.

Acts 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.

Paul thought he was serving God when he persecuted Christians, he thought he was iradicating false doctrine. His motives were sincere, but his actions were sinful.

Saul also had a good motive when he spared the sheep and oxen of the Amalekites, but it was sin.

1 Sam 15:14 And Samuel said, What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?
15 And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed.

Saul had a good motive, he spared the best sheep and oxen to sacrifice to the LORD. Trouble is, God had commanded him to kill all the Amalekites including their sheep and oxen.

1 Sam 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

So, having a good motive does not determine whether an act is good or evil.

 

[Skandelon]

The decree of God is His eternal purpose, according to His will, whereby He has foreordained whatever comes to pass.

You have just replaced the word "decree" with the word "foreordained" so could you define "foreordain" now? Like I told you when I first started this quest, it doesn't help just switching between a half dozen ambiguous and undefined terms such as "determined, predetermined, caused, foreordained, ordained, decreed, predestined, etc etc. You need to explain what it is to decree something. Like I asked before, What does it mean to say God decreed the the fall of man?

I think it means, "God has established a world in which sin will indeed necessarily come to pass by God's permission, but not by his "positive agency." What do you think about that?

Further, since you admitted there is a permissive decree, can you just list one thing that might fall under God permissive decree and expound on that a bit?

 

[Skandelon]

But the motive to stop the killing of unborn babies is not necessarily a good one.

You don't think stoping abortion is a good motive?

It is most CERTAINLY not a good one if it entails the unauthorized execution of another human being.

Now, you are bluring the line between motive and means again. The motive is presumed to be pure for the sake of the argument, and unless you can prove that is never possible there is no grounds to presume otherwise.

Let me try it this way. We both agree that God promised to never flood the entire earth as he did in Noah's day, right? What if God did flood the earth again thus breaking that promise? (please don't say, well then he never made that promise because we are accepting that he did make that promise but decided to break it and flood the earth for a good reason) Is that possible? Can God break his own promise as long it is for a good reason?

Can he promise to save you and then change his mind for good reason? In other words, once God promises to do something is he obligated to do that thing, or could he NOT do it for a good reason and it be okay?

Please explain why it is honorable to violently kill 50 people on a battlefield and evil to do the exact same thing in a neighborhood.

What is the difference?

The motive is different and the means are different, so I don't see your point. The motive of a solder is pure and the means he is using is pure. The motive of the criminal in the neighborhood is impure and his means are impure. What point are you trying to make with this?

Answer this and I will supply the definition for "ordain".

I love the way you give ultimatums by withholding clarity of your theology, all the while accusing those around you of holding to a "nameless theology."

I guess you don't see the irony in that, do you?

You might want to include "foreordain" since you just used that word to define "decree." Let me guess you are going to define "ordain" as "that which God decrees will necessarily come to pass," right? :laugh:

 

[Robert Snow]

I watched the video and I cannot believe that a person can say, as Piper says in the video, that all the wife beating, etc., etc. was planned by God before the beginning. This truly makes god a monster. This is heresy of the highest order. If he is right, then any verse saying or indicating the God is love lies. As I have said several times, what kind of father would I be to inflict pain, suffering and agony on my children so they could then see what a wonderful person I am in treating them in their pain and suffering.

Crabtownboy, let me introduce Luke, our resident Hyper-Calvinist. He continues to show his true colors with every posting. In his world, God wanted sin to exist so that He, God could receive even more glory. Of course, this totally contradicts scripture, but that doesn't stop Luke from continuing to spout this same old garbage, time and time again!

 

[webdog]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but when it comes to a lie I side with Luke. Rahab lied and her motive was pure in doing so. Jonathan also lied to protect David. It's what flows from the heart that determines sin.

 

[Crabtownboy]

The decree of God is His eternal purpose, according to His will, whereby He has foreordained whatever comes to pass.

By your own statement here you have said that God is the author of all good and also all evil. I do not believe that.

I do not remember if it was Pearl Buck or Mildred Cable who told the story about a peasant farmer who gave his sons terrible beatings. When ask why he beat his sons so severely he replied:

"How will my sons know I love them if I do not beat them."

This is what you are doing to God ... making him a father who inflicts evil on his children so they will know he loves them."

To me this is a complete misunderstanding of God and his purpose.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Anabaptists were by and large heretics who denied the Trinity, etc.

Some did, some did not. From your prespective those who denied the trinity cannot be blamed as they were simply preordained by God to believe as they did.

And, NO, there is no evidence that they existed before the Reformation.

I don't believe I said that. But they were contemporaries.

Calvinism is perfectly defensible.

So is Communism, but that does not make Communism a good governmental or economic system.

But no one, will believe it, who wants to deny the exhaustive Sovereignty of God.

I beg to differ. We simply have a different view of his sovereignty and what that means.

The fact is that there IS evil.

I agree.

The fact is that God has a plan and a purpose for everything that is.

I respectfully disagree.

So the fact is that God has a plan and a purpose for evil.

I respectfully disagree.

He hates evil but he has a plan and a purpose for it.

I do not see how this is possible in the Calvinist view as God authored or preordained evil.

The plan seems obvious to many of us.

And I respectfully disagree. It may be obvious to you, but it is an error.

That by the existence of evil love might shine most brightly.

So, and you have yet to respond to this ... if you beat your child and injure him it is all right as then you can show how merciful you are.

Without evil there is no suffering Savior, no redemption, no saving grace, no mercy, no Lamb receiving the praises of a multitude which no man can number of the redeemed throughout the endless ages of eternity.

Yes it would not be needed. But your interpretation of this is an error.

Why ANYONE would want God to NOT want those things is beyond me.

As man has used his free will to sin then yes these are good. If man had never sinned they would not be necessary and we would be in personal contact with God. God is working toward restoring this relationship. God would much rather have this type of relationship than to have to forgive us our shortcomings.

THAT is indefensible.

You opinion. I just defended it.

What I find indefensible is the stance saying God is the author of all evil and that is exactly what you have said to me through the posts in this thread.

 

[Robert Snow]

A deed is not good or evil in and of itself.

Motive makes it good or evil. It is from the heart that evil comes.

Sin is from the heart. It is NOT from the deed.

It is that which comes OUT of a man that defiles him.

Sin is about MOTIVE.

You just keep digging your hole deeper and deeper. Now you have resorted to saying some of the most silly things yet.

A deed is not good or evil in and of itself. Motive makes it good or evil.

So, if I kill my sick neighbor to alleviate his suffering this is not an evil act, since my motive is to stop his suffering? What foolishness!

 

[Crabtownboy]

It seems to me it is like this.

Adam and eve sinned and brought death and evil into our world.

The Calvinist view is that God predestined this for his own glory by his exhibiting grace and forgiveness.

I say that Adam and Eve sinned by their own freewill and thus broke their close relationship with God.

Since that time God has been working to restore that close relationship through his grace and forgiveness. This shows his love and greatness.

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Robert, thanks for your words to me.

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Luke2427, I have a question. Is Jesus the fullest revelation of God and God's character to us?