Calvinism, Arminianism, and Provisionism?

[David Lamb]

I fid not mean that literally. I meant that when God's will is involved Calvinism treats God as if He were man (God's will vs man's will).

Calvinism does not in any way treat God as if He were man. After all, if He were merely a man, His will would be not greater or more potent than any other man's will.

 

[JonC]

Calvinism does not in any way treat God as if He were man. After all, if He were merely a man, His will would be not greater or more potent than any other man's will.

I do not mean treat God as of He were man. I am talking about equating the mind of God as if this were our mind in type.

 

[JesusFan]

???? I never read of any Christian that said God is subordinate to our will.

Where on earth are you coming up with this stuff???

Have you not heard or read when many would say that we are the ones that permit/allow God to save us, as he did all that he could do to save us, but depends on us making the "right decision/"

I do not mean treat God as of He were man. I am talking about equating the mind of God as if this were our mind in type.

The will of God would be dominent over the will of man, correct?

He was on staff here for a long time.

No, he is not a Pelagian.

I disagree with his theology, and he typically offers poor arguments against Calvinism. But some Calvinists here have a bad habit of accusing any free-will believer as a Pelagian. They confuse Pelagianism with semi-pelagianism.

I doubt Pelagian exists today within Christian theology.

He was on staff here for a long time.

No, he is not a Pelagian.

I disagree with his theology, and he typically offers poor arguments against Calvinism. But some Calvinists here have a bad habit of accusing any free-will believer as a Pelagian. They confuse Pelagianism with semi-pelagianism.

I doubt Pelagian exists today within Christian theology.

He indeed really holds to that theology
Flowers's view of grace differs from both traditional Arminianism and Calvinism in that he rejects the concept of prevenient grace altogether. Classical Arminianism teaches that the Holy Spirit grants prevenient grace to all people, enabling them to respond to the gospel, even if they still have the freedom to reject it. Calvinism, on the other hand, teaches that God’s grace is effectual and irresistibly draws the elect to Himself, transforming their nature so that they willingly and joyfully embrace Christ.

In contrast, Flowers argues that the grace provided through the preaching of the gospel is sufficient for salvation without the need for any special inward work of the Holy Spirit. He believes that this grace merely involves the communication of the gospel message and does not change the nature of the hearer or counteract the effects of original sin. This means that, according to Flowers, fallen human beings still possess the innate ability to respond positively to God’s offer of salvation without any supernatural change being wrought in their hearts by the Spirit. This belief is fundamentally Semi-Pelagian because it assumes that the initial movement toward God is possible without divine enablement, contradicting the clear biblical teaching of humanity’s total depravity and inability to come to God on their own.

Leighton Flowers | Monergism

Leighton Flowers, a professor and Director of Evangelism and Apologetics for Texas Baptists (who claims to be a former Calvinist), is now a prominent advocate

www.monergism.com

 

[Dave...]

In contrast, Flowers argues that the grace provided through the preaching of the gospel is sufficient for salvation without the need for any special inward work of the Holy Spirit. He believes that this grace merely involves the communication of the gospel message and does not change the nature of the hearer or counteract the effects of original sin.

Hey JF

Emphasis on "the grace provided", and "this grace". If you listen to the video from the OP from the 4 minute mark to about the 5 minute mark, he explains that the grace provided is from the Holy Spirit. Even through the Word.

This means that, according to Flowers, fallen human beings still possess the innate ability to respond positively to God’s offer of salvation without any supernatural change being wrought in their hearts by the Spirit. This belief is fundamentally Semi-Pelagian because it assumes that the initial movement toward God is possible without divine enablement, contradicting the clear biblical teaching of humanity’s total depravity and inability to come to God on their own.

Leighton Flowers | Monergism

Leighton Flowers, a professor and Director of Evangelism and Apologetics for Texas Baptists (who claims to be a former Calvinist), is now a prominent advocate

www.monergism.com

I believe that Flowers argument was for a form of prevenient grace, but not like the Arminians. The idea behind what he believes is simple. Whatever is needed, Gods provides. Thus the term "provisionism". He believes that man is fallen, etc, but believes that God provides what man needs to respond to Him. Some of the examples given were "these things are written so that you may believe", thus the Word, or the Gospel is sufficient grace to allow one to believe. Same thing with the Truth, and "the Truth will set you free." The Truth is sufficient grace to overcome any spiritual inability. Plus as a bonus, the presence of Jesus, the Word, is the also Truth.

 

[JesusFan]

Hey JF

Emphasis on "the grace provided", and "this grace". If you listen to the video from the OP from the 4 minute mark to about the 5 minute mark, he explains that the grace provided is from the Holy Spirit. Even through the Word.



I believe that Flowers argument was for a form of prevenient grace, but not like the Arminians. The idea behind what he believes is simple. Whatever is needed, Gods provides. Thus the term "provisionism". He believes that man is fallen, etc, but believes that God provides what man needs to respond to Him. Some of the examples given were "these things are written so that you may believe", thus the Word, or the Gospel is sufficient grace to allow one to believe. Same thing with the Truth, and "the Truth will set you free." The Truth is sufficient grace to overcome any spiritual inability. Plus as a bonus, the presence of Jesus, the Word, is the also Truth.

To think that way, he would then have to believe that we are not spiritual dead when found in Adan , and if he really does hold to the sinner can freely accept Jesus apart from the working of the Holy Spirit, outright Pel doctrine

 

[JonC]

Have you not heard or read when many would say that we are the ones that permit/allow God to save us, as he did all that he could do to save us, but depends on us making the "right decision/"

No, I have not. I am unfamiliar with that philosophy, except as part of ancient heresies. I have not seen that taught in my lifetime - but to be fair I have not looked.

He indeed really holds to that theology
Flowers's view of grace differs from both traditional Arminianism and Calvinism in that he rejects the concept of prevenient grace altogether. Classical Arminianism teaches that the Holy Spirit grants prevenient grace to all people, enabling them to respond to the gospel, even if they still have the freedom to reject it. Calvinism, on the other hand, teaches that God’s grace is effectual and irresistibly draws the elect to Himself, transforming their nature so that they willingly and joyfully embrace Christ.

In contrast, Flowers argues that the grace provided through the preaching of the gospel is sufficient for salvation without the need for any special inward work of the Holy Spirit. He believes that this grace merely involves the communication of the gospel message and does not change the nature of the hearer or counteract the effects of original sin. This means that, according to Flowers, fallen human beings still possess the innate ability to respond positively to God’s offer of salvation without any supernatural change being wrought in their hearts by the Spirit. This belief is fundamentally Semi-Pelagian because it assumes that the initial movement toward God is possible without divine enablement, contradicting the clear biblical teaching of humanity’s total depravity and inability to come to God on their own.

Leighton Flowers | Monergism

Leighton Flowers, a professor and Director of Evangelism and Apologetics for Texas Baptists (who claims to be a former Calvinist), is now a prominent advocate

www.monergism.com

But that is not Pelaginism....and that is not exactly what he said he believes (I'd put him in the Arminianism camp as he said on this forum that God draws everybody).

My complaint against the guy's teaching is that he misrepresent Calvinism (like "cosmic child abuse"), but he has to because his belief IS a form of Calvinism (one that was once orthodox but later was rejected).

The will of God would be dominent over the will of man, correct?

The will of God is going to be accomplished (He will accomplish His plan), and man's actions do not determine the future.

But I do not believe that the mind of God is equal to the mind of man. What I am saying is the comparison you are making is wrong.

 

[Dave...]

To think that way, he would then have to believe that we are not spiritual dead when found in Adan , and if he really does hold to the sinner can freely accept Jesus apart from the working of the Holy Spirit, outright Pel doctrine

Hey JF

John 7:38-39? Not born again, not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, yet they believed. That's what Jesus taught. How did they achieve that? According to Romans 8:9-11, if we hold to your two option theory, it must be the flesh, because they didn't have the Spirit. JF, please consider that there may be a bigger picture.

This is what Jesus thinks. John 7:38-39 was OT. Romans 8:9-11 is NT, for the record. Everyone before the cross was in Adam until Pentecost when they were placed into Christ by receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That's why we call Pentecost the birth of the Church. Because the fist believers were placed into Christ. It was owed to them by promise. That Promise of the Father goes all the way back to Ezekiel 36:26-27

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."(*that's born again*) But this He spoke concerning the [Holy] Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Romans 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

 

[JonC]

OK my bad.

I just assumed that you mistakenly made the comment backwards, or said Calvinism but meant Arminianism, because my dyslexia makes me do things like that all the time. I get the gist of what you're saying. Two opposing wills, one must overturn the other. I would probably word it differently though. You could make the same point about Arminian free will God's will. Calvinism would appear to be opposite of that.

Enter compatibilism. I'm sure you're aware of that theological understanding and study.

God does decree all that occurs. But at the same time, man makes responsible choices. The Bible teaches both. In fact, God's decree is based on His will. He works all things according to the council of His will. Just because God decrees something, doesn't mean that He positively causes it. Man can and does make responsible choices. It's not something that we are supposed to grasp in it's full depth of understanding, I suppose. We have the mind of Christ and the written Word, but there's always 'for who has known the mind of God...'.

Yes, enter compatibilism (in a way).

I think of it this way - the will of a man cannot be compared to the will of a rabbit. There is no comparison. God, the mind of God, is infinitely greater than the mind of man. There is no "verses". There can't be without reducing the mind of God or elevating the mind of man. God is that much greater than man.

 

[David Lamb]

I do not mean treat God as of He were man. I am talking about equating the mind of God as if this were our mind in type.

Whether you meant the mind of God compared with the mind of man, or whether you didn't, makes no difference to what I said. Calvinists do not in any way equate man with God.

 

[JesusFan]

No, I have not. I am unfamiliar with that philosophy, except as part of ancient heresies. I have not seen that taught in my lifetime - but to be fair I have not looked.


But that is not Pelaginism....and that is not exactly what he said he believes (I'd put him in the Arminianism camp as he said on this forum that God draws everybody).

My complaint against the guy's teaching is that he misrepresent Calvinism (like "cosmic child abuse"), but he has to because his belief IS a form of Calvinism (one that was once orthodox but later was rejected).


The will of God is going to be accomplished (He will accomplish His plan), and man's actions do not determine the future.

But I do not believe that the mind of God is equal to the mind of man. What I am saying is the comparison you are making is wrong.

Non Cal soteriology in the ultimate sense exalts man as being captain of his salvation, as we chose to do the right thing by receiving Jesus to save us

 

[Dave...]

Non Cal soteriology in the ultimate sense exalts man as being captain of his salvation, as we chose to do the right thing by receiving Jesus to save us

JF

Think of salvation as a process. Not the justification part, which is called positional sanctification, but the practical or progressive part of sanctification. Our becoming what God already reckons us to be in Christ. The practical salvation starts with the life, which starts with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which results in our being born again, the beginning of that life. That's all of God, that's all of grace. Man is not captain of His salvation, as God is, 100% of that life.

But.............., the faith that comes before that life to initiate that indwelling, and thus initiate the life, comes from somewhere else. Calvinism, to solve that problem in their two options only theory, stretches that life to include the initial faith, but that Idea is extremely hostile to Scripture and the simple Gospel message itself, as there are many clear passages that say otherwise, as I have shown you just a few. To which Calvinism then ignores and then appeals to their TULIP as proof. There's more to the picture. There's more than two options. Old Testament believers prove this. Calvinism cannot stand in the face of complete Scripture context. Your extremes do not paint an accurate picture, but appear to be an appeal to play on peoples emotions. Please consider that there is more to learn, and Calvin, like many others, did not have all the answers. Let Scripture speak, and listen. Look at these passages.

Galatians 3:2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

We are perfected/matured in that life by the Spirit, by God, not the flesh. That life begins as a result of our initial faith . You have the right idea, but the wrong context.

Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[JesusFan]

JF

Think of salvation as a process. Not the justification part, which is called positional sanctification, but the practical or progressive part of sanctification. Our becoming what God already reckons us to be in Christ. The practical salvation starts with the life, which starts with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which results in our being born again, the beginning of that life. That's all of God, that's all of grace. Man is not captain of His salvation, as God is, 100% of that life.

But.............., the faith that comes before that life to initiate that indwelling, and thus initiate the life, comes from somewhere else. Calvinism, to solve that problem in their two options only theory, stretches that life to include the initial faith, but that Idea is extremely hostile to Scripture and the simple Gospel message itself, as there are many clear passages that say otherwise, as I have shown you just a few. To which Calvinism then ignores and then appeals to their TULIP as proof. There's more to the picture. There's more than two options. Old Testament believers prove this. Calvinism cannot stand in the face of complete Scripture context. Your extremes do not paint an accurate picture, but appear to be an appeal to play on peoples emotions. Please consider that there is more to learn, and Calvin, like many others, did not have all the answers. Let Scripture speak, and listen. Look at these passages.

Galatians 3:2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

We are perfected/matured in that life by the Spirit, by God, not the flesh. That life begins as a result of our initial faith . You have the right idea, but the wrong context.

Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Are we justified by God due to him knowing that we would make the "right choice", or due to Him choosing to grant to us the very means to "make the right choice?"

 

[37818]

Are we justified by God due to him knowing that we would make the "right choice", or due to Him choosing to grant to us the very means to "make the right choice?"

No. But God who saves those who believe in His Christ, God keeps.


1 John 5:1, ". . . Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . ."

 

[JonC]

@JesusFan

Think about the verses speaking of the elect.

Christ is the Elect
Christ is God's Chosen
The elect are foreknown IN CHRIST
The elect are those who are in Christ
The elect are those with faith in Christ

There is a theme here.

Now, I may be misunderstanding you but it seems to me as if you are thinking of God choosing (electing) people to be in Christ. If I misunderstood what you were saying, apologies.

My point is that the elect are in Christ, and are elect based on Christ being God's Elect.