This is a classic example of calvinist dishonesty and word twisting. You say that we have a choice, yet we will always choose the same thing. If you can't understand how that is no choice at all, then you are completely blinded. I'll spell it out very clearly: If you aren't able to choose something, it doesn't count as a choice.
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Calvinism Critiqued by a Former Calvinist
- Thread starter mandym
- Start date
This is a classic example of calvinist dishonesty and word twisting. You say that we have a choice, yet we will always choose the same thing. If you can't understand how that is no choice at all, then you are completely blinded. I'll spell it out very clearly: If you aren't able to choose something, it doesn't count as a choice.
No it is not "by ourselves". God opens up the heart so that the choice can be made. Even the elect have the option to choose no after God opens their heart. But without God they would never even consider it.
[edit - unnecessarily inflammatory] As one of your fellow calvinists on this board likes to say, you need to repent of this sin. You make this statement yet you make it dishonestly. It's been addressed multiple times. If a person is incapable of making a choice, they have no choice.
No, I said nothing like that. Please cite where I said anything like that.
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preacher4truth
Active Member
Utterly lost? This never happened.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nonsense and nothing but fabrication. Go fetch where you attempted upon my arrival deep disussion. Prove and substantiate your false statement so we all can see this. I'll be waiting. :laugh:
When I first came here Luke2427 was schooling you, that, and you've never engaged in anything deep. Ever. You're a proof-texter, and that is shallow, not "deep". For instance, your misapplication and misinterpretation of Isaiah 1:18.
But hey, keep dreaming. :thumbsup:
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
And what you fail to see is that God must have been the one to decide what was forced upon ALL of us, thus this point doesn't avoid our argument. Plus, you've yet to show in scripture where "total inability" is a result of the Fall. Labor pains and toiling the soil and knowing good/evil is mentioned, but nothing is said about the inability to respond to God's appeal to be reconciled.
Alive in Christ
New Member
Jesusfan...
Most of the time, but not all the time. Some people hear the gosple one time, and they recieve Christ then and there. They find it to be the best message they have ever heard and the accept it.
God does not regenerate anyone without the person desiring it.. We hear the message and then we have 2 choices....
a) embrace it.
b) reject it.
Thats just the way it is.
Some people have very dramatic conversion experiences. Emotional. Gripping. Lots of crying, etc
Others have very subdued converions
But no matter how the conversion happens, the lost person...makes...a...choice....
Nobody wakes up in the morning and discovers, to thier complete surprise....
Wow...while I was sleeping, God turned me into a christian!!!
Most of the time, but not all the time. Some people hear the gosple one time, and they recieve Christ then and there. They find it to be the best message they have ever heard and the accept it.
God does not regenerate anyone without the person desiring it.. We hear the message and then we have 2 choices....
a) embrace it.
b) reject it.
Thats just the way it is.
Some people have very dramatic conversion experiences. Emotional. Gripping. Lots of crying, etc
Others have very subdued converions
But no matter how the conversion happens, the lost person...makes...a...choice....
Nobody wakes up in the morning and discovers, to thier complete surprise....
Wow...while I was sleeping, God turned me into a christian!!!
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preacher4truth
Active Member
Jesusfan hasn't failed to see anything.
But what he says you've failed to see? He's right.
By the way, it is God who enables to respond. He gives the gift of faith to do so, and He is the one who quickens.
Jesusfan has it correct. You? Not so much. :smilewinkgrin:
That is true. Every person has the choice to accept or reject Jesus. End the end, every single person in hell will be their because they had no desire to accept Jesus and therefore have rejected him.
In Calvinism, God has withheld the desire from those in hell. In Calvinism, it will be God's fault that those people are in hell.
straw man, not true, you've been corrected many times on this already. In Calvinism, it's man's fault that man is in hell, not God's. Man is the sinner and all that are in hell are their justly.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Then why do you both avoid providing the text I requested?Jesusfan hasn't failed to see anything.
But what he says you've failed to see? He's right.
This is why I have stopped engaging you in discussions. You actually still think I would disagree with this. Of course God enables us (he enables us by inviting us to be reconciled), we just don't believe he does it "irresistibly" as you do.
If God never opened their heart then they did not have a choice. You seem to redefine the word choice. Can you give a clear explanation of it?
It's not a straw man and it is true. In Calvinism, men go to hell because God never chose them. The man has absolutely no choice.
infinitesimal...sp??? I was ok in geometry....but rejected calculus faster than you reject the works of john owen:laugh:
maybe thats why i am driving a truck now.....lol
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A choice is when you have 2 options. Every person has 2 options. They have no desire for option A(Christ) so they choose option B.
If I gave you dirt and a nice steak as a choice for dinner. Which one would you choose? You would choose the steak(if you don't like steak, insert something you do like
). Did you have a choice? Sure, but you have 0 desire to eat dirt, so you would not choose to eat dirt. Hope that helps.
Speaking of food, off to eat at Lady and Sons!
Skan,
In this post i can see that you are trying to come to a common ground...sort of moderate kind of blend...where you take a bit of this and some of that....and you are trying to give a reason and explanation of your spiritual pilgrimage...and encourage others down this path...like this:1_grouphug:
That is nice....very nice....however
What if......
There is sometimes expressed in these kind of posts....an idea that there are two equal sides....both can be right at the same time:type:
What if.....
Only one side is correct......and the other side is dead wrong....every time.
Sometimes it looks as if it is closer to this...than the idea of arminius filling the "void".
The issue would then be more like a christian confronting a cult member....not so easy to sort out. Seems more like that ...than the other:thumbsup:
A choice is when you have 2 options. Every person has 2 options. They have no desire for option A(Christ) so they choose option B.
If I gave you dirt and a nice steak as a choice for dinner. Which one would you choose? You would choose the steak(if you don't like steak, insert something you do like
Hope that helps.
Speaking of food, off to eat at Lady and Sons!
If God did not make the same effort to open their hearts then they did not have a choice.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Oh, I agree. I unapologetically think Calvinism is wrong and having been one before I know exactly how it felt to think Arminianism was wrong too. I get that.
But, both sides, if they are to be objective and fair in a debate MUST be able to fairly articulate the views of the other. I rarely see that from either side, but it is especially rare to see a Calvinist who correctly explains the scholarly view of Arminianism. Most, in my experience, think we all believe God looks down the corridors of time and sees who will choose Him and then he predestines to save them (the foresight faith view). I used to think the same thing. No wonder people dismiss Arminianism as an ignorant teaching. I would too if I still believed that is all it was.
All I'm saying is get to REALLY know that which you insist must be in error before determining to be so.
JF....
If you do not mind me saying so....you need to tighten up how you express what you believe....especially in a debate forum where you are about to tell mandy that he has it wrong.
Some see this as a mixed message when you say;
People naturally reject it,,,no where are WE ASKED TO ACCEPT ANYTHING.
We are made to be accepted in the beloved.