Calvinism Fact Sheet #2, by Joel Barnes: Unconditional Election

[utilyan]

It seems that you're fixated on a God of love,

As Commanded. God is LOVE 1 John 4.

not one Who is willing to show His wrath

God's love Is his wrath. You should repent from that Stone age idea of power you have.

I reject the lie that God loves everyone,

You and Satan have a common goal.
He doesn't love everyone either.

ITs figures of speech and anthropomorphisms. Its like if I say I hate whiney people, doesn't mean if one whines that I hate them.

Even John Calvin understood anthropomorphisms, Ultimately God does not hate.


You failed Dave....... what you understood was the noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

 

[Dave G]

As Commanded. God is LOVE 1 John 4.

He is also willing to show His wrath and to make His power known ( Romans 9:22 ).

God's love Is his wrath.

No, it is not.
Read the Old Testament, and you may get an idea of His wrath.

For example, the books of Exodus, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Zechariah.
Then read the book of Revelation and I think that you will get a very good idea of His coming wrath.

You should repent from that Stone age idea of power you have.

I recommend that you stop listening to men and start listening to His words alone.
Perhaps someday you will see the difference, as I often pray that you do.

You and Satan have a common goal.
He doesn't love everyone either.

Satan loves no one but himself, and he always seeks to spread lies about the God of Heaven.
He even poses as God ( or an angel or messenger of God ) in order to deceive people ( 2 Corinthians 11:14 ).

His most popular lie at the moment ( and for many hundreds of years now ) is to take John 3:16 and use it as if it applies to everyone.
Many popular teachers have spread that one down through the centuries, and have since long before the start of the so-called "Protestant Reformation".

The second-most popular lie that he loves to spread through his teachers, is that the contents of the epistles apply to all of mankind... which they do not.
Nothing in the Bible is or was ever meant for those who would never believe on Christ, from the heart.

 

[Dave G]

ITs figures of speech and anthropomorphisms. Its like if I say I hate whiney people, doesn't mean if one whines that I hate them.

Again, I disagree.

It's a biblical fact that God hates some people.
Here are His words ( not mine ):

" The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man." ( Psalms 5:5-6 ).

However, you have the right to disagree with the words on the page if you honestly want to.

Even John Calvin understood anthropomorphisms, Ultimately God does not hate.

We're talking about what God says,
not what John Calvin or Augustine of Hippo or even what Luis de Molina said about God's word.

You do believe God's words, do you not?

You failed Dave....... what you understood was the noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

We've all failed, utilyan.
God's word wins, and we all lose when it comes to whose words are truth and whose are not ( Romans 3:4 ).

But I'd much prefer to lose to the Lord, acknowledge that His words are true ( and not my own ideas about them ) and still be found in Christ,
than for the alternative to happen...

To think that what I had done during my life in the way of my own efforts had somehow merited God's grace,
and to discover that I was wrong on Judgment Day and have the Lord Jesus tell me this:

" ...I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

That would be the single worst thing that could ever happen to a person,
and that is what I truly hope never happens to you, my friend.



That said, I take my leave of this thread and I once again, as always, wish you God's blessings upon both your life and ( if I have not said it before, on your loved ones' lives )... as well as Him blessing you in many ways and with many good and perfect gifts.

May you always remember that if it weren't for His grace, we'd all be in Hell right now at this very moment...
where His justice and holiness demands that we be, were it not for His mercy shown to us through His Son.

 

[ad finitum]

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

You have dodged the question about the interpretation of Isaiah. Be that as it may, now you are quoting Paul's quotation of the Psalms. But that passage of the Psalms are talking about the category "fool" and contrasting them with "My people". And another quotes David's description of foes from within and another, foes from without.

Anyone who can read can see that these quotations don't support the claim that "nobody seeks".

 

[ad finitum]

There is no free will....those who seek are being effectually drawn by the Father;
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This doesn't indicate that none seek God. In the previous chapter, the reason people do not believe Jesus is because they didn't believe the witness of God, which was Moses. The Father gives to Jesus of them who believed the testimony of God through Moses. The responsibility for that belief is the people themselves, the ones to whom the testimony has been given.

 

[ad finitum]

Some people don't believe that Paul was an Apostle and that God spoke through him; Do you believe that Paul spoke for God?

The Spirit of God testifies, to anyone who humbly and prayerfully studies the letters of Paul, whether what he says is true or not. What is the fruit of the Spirit? Who teaches about it? Who denies the truth of what Paul teaches about the fruit of the Spirit?

 

[ad finitum]

Calvinist hold that God has the authority and power to make sure that His intended to get saved will get saved, while other view is God hopes and frets that somebody, anybody will do the right thing and accept Jesus to save them!

The "other view" described here is a straw man. In reality, God knows the end from the beginning. He has no need of fretting the unknowns.

That is how foreordaination/predestination works. God's foreknowledge of everyone's free-will decisions allows him to place people into history, whenever in time and wherever in geography to suit His purposes so that the resources they need to support the decisions He knows they will make are in place. It is this of which the plan of God consists. God is so powerful, He doesn't need to be the control-freak that Calvinists insist that He is. God can handle the "sovereign" and independent decisions of billions of creatures and weave them into his perfect plan. The Calvinist god is a lesser being who cannot cope with free will.

Why does not the Calvinist understand this? Why cannot the the Calvinist give an accurate description of someone else's point of view? Have they really never heard of this interpretation?

 

[Brightfame52]

adfin

That is how foreordaination/predestination works. God's foreknowledge of everyone's free-will decisions allows him to place people into history, whenever in time and wherever in geography to suit His purposes so that the resources they need to support the decisions He knows they will make are in place.

This sounds like human reasoning and nothing found in scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

You have dodged the question about the interpretation of Isaiah. Be that as it may, now you are quoting Paul's quotation of the Psalms. But that passage of the Psalms are talking about the category "fool" and contrasting them with "My people". And another quotes David's description of foes from within and another, foes from without.

Anyone who can read can see that these quotations don't support the claim that "nobody seeks".

Evidently you are a truth suppressor.
Anyone who can read with understanding can see Paul quotes the psalm in Roman's 3 to show all outside of Christ are condemned . Jew or Gentile.
Trying to explain away the verse with your little play on words while cute, doesn't get it done.
Psalm 14 is clear...it speaks of any.The answer is none seek.
Any who avoid God are described as fools.

 

[Iconoclast]

The "other view" described here is a straw man. In reality, God knows the end from the beginning. He has no need of fretting the unknowns.

That is how foreordaination/predestination works. God's foreknowledge of everyone's free-will decisions allows him to place people into history, whenever in time and wherever in geography to suit His purposes so that the resources they need to support the decisions He knows they will make are in place. It is this of which the plan of God consists. God is so powerful, He doesn't need to be the control-freak that Calvinists insist that He is. God can handle the "sovereign" and independent decisions of billions of creatures and weave them into his perfect plan. The Calvinist god is a lesser being who cannot cope with free will.

Why does not the Calvinist understand this? Why cannot the the Calvinist give an accurate description of someone else's point of view? Have they really never heard of this interpretation?

Free will does not exist. You promise is Dead on arrival.
Your profane description of God shows your hatred of the biblical God.
This is like people who say they cannot worship a God who casts people out e into hell.They invent a God who does what they want.

 

[Iconoclast]

This doesn't indicate that none seek God. In the previous chapter, the reason people do not believe Jesus is because they didn't believe the witness of God, which was Moses. The Father gives to Jesus of them who believed the testimony of God through Moses. The responsibility for that belief is the people themselves, the ones to whom the testimony has been given.

Verse44 is quite clear.Your attempt to explain away scripture fails once again.

 

[Titus Tarnum]

The Spirit of God testifies, to anyone who humbly and prayerfully studies the letters of Paul, whether what he says is true or not. What is the fruit of the Spirit? Who teaches about it? Who denies the truth of what Paul teaches about the fruit of the Spirit?

You originally said;

It is more likely that modern man has misread Isaiah and Paul using the faulty practice of proof-texting (quoting out of context).

To be clear, did Paul speak untruthfully somewhere so that we have to define the truth by the Holy Spirit?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ad finitum]

Evidently you are a truth suppressor.
Anyone who can read with understanding can see Paul quotes the psalm in Roman's 3 to show all outside of Christ are condemned . Jew or Gentile.

Trying to explain away the verse with your little play on words while cute, doesn't get it done.
Psalm 14 is clear...it speaks of any.The answer is none seek.
Any who avoid God are described as fools.

If that were true, Paul would not quote Psalm 14 because it does not say what you claim. To understand this, one must actually read ALL of Psalm 14. Don't forget to read the last half of the Psalm also.

Pslam 14
The scoundrel has said in his heart,
"There is no God."
They corrupt, they make loathsome their acts.
There is none who does good.
The LORD from the heavens looked down
on the sons of humankind
to see, is there someone discerning,
someone seeking out God.
All turn astray,
altogether befouled.
There is none who does good.
There is not even one.
Do they not know,
all wrongdoers?
Devourers of my people devoured them like bread.
They did not call the LORD.
There did they sorely fear,
for God is with the righteous band.
In your plot against the poor you are shamed,
for the LORD is his shelter.
Oh, may from Zion come Israel's rescue
when the LORD restores His people's condition.
May Jacob exult,
May Israel rejoice.​

In context, it is plain to see that in this Psalm, there is the scoundrel for whom it is said what Paul quotes. And these are set over and against "the righteous band". And the righteous band are composed of Jacob/Israel. That means that gentiles are in view. This makes Paul's case that gentiles have no advantage over Jews.

Other passages quoted by Paul make the case that the enemies are from within, i.e. Israelites. This makes the case that Jews have no advantage. They can be just as evil, in spite of the fact that to them was given the Word of God.

This one Psalm alone wipes out the Calvinist notion that nobody seeks (or has sought) God. The "all" refers to those who have chosen to not believe in the God of Israel. It is they who do no good. It is they who are not discerning. It is the sons of those men who are in view, not the sons of all men which is made obvious by the victimization of "the righteous band" by the scoundrels/fools who say there is no God.

Why would the fool be singled out with a definite article? Because not all men are fools. Otherwise it would read like "all men say, there is no God." By describing a category of men, "fool", the implication that it is not all men.

QED.

 

[Brightfame52]

If that were true, Paul would not quote Psalm 14 because it does not say what you claim. To understand this, one must actually read ALL of Psalm 14. Don't forget to read the last half of the Psalm also.

Pslam 14
The scoundrel has said in his heart,
"There is no God."
They corrupt, they make loathsome their acts.
There is none who does good.
The LORD from the heavens looked down
on the sons of humankind
to see, is there someone discerning,
someone seeking out God.
All turn astray,
altogether befouled.
There is none who does good.
There is not even one.
Do they not know,
all wrongdoers?
Devourers of my people devoured them like bread.
They did not call the LORD.
There did they sorely fear,
for God is with the righteous band.
In your plot against the poor you are shamed,
for the LORD is his shelter.
Oh, may from Zion come Israel's rescue
when the LORD restores His people's condition.
May Jacob exult,
May Israel rejoice.​

In context, it is plain to see that in this Psalm, there is the scoundrel for whom it is said what Paul quotes. And these are set over and against "the righteous band". And the righteous band are composed of Jacob/Israel. That means that gentiles are in view. This makes Paul's case that gentiles have no advantage over Jews.

Other passages quoted by Paul make the case that the enemies are from within, i.e. Israelites. This makes the case that Jews have no advantage. They can be just as evil, in spite of the fact that to them was given the Word of God.

This one Psalm alone wipes out the Calvinist notion that nobody seeks (or has sought) God. The "all" refers to those who have chosen to not believe in the God of Israel. It is they who do no good. It is they who are not discerning. It is the sons of those men who are in view, not the sons of all men which is made obvious by the victimization of "the righteous band" by the scoundrels/fools who say there is no God.

Why would the fool be singled out with a definite article? Because not all men are fools. Otherwise it would read like "all men say, there is no God." By describing a category of men, "fool", the implication that it is not all men.

QED.

By Nature man doesnt seek God, none do, jew or gentile Rom 3:11. Its plain as the nose on your face.

 

[ad finitum]

By Nature man doesnt seek God, none do, jew or gentile Rom 3:11. Its plain as the nose on your face.

That's the fallacy of proof-texting (quoting out of context).

Paul's quote in 3:11 is from Ps 14. The post to which you have replied shows the full text of Ps 14 which says "nobody who claims there is no God seeks God". These fools are compared to "the righteous band".

Clearly, the righteous band are not a part of the category of humanity, "fool", who claim there is no God. Therefore, claiming 3:11 says that no human being seeks God actually means that nobody who denies God seeks Him, and in the context of Psalm 14, those fools are non-Israelites. This illustrates Paul's point that gentiles don't have an innate advantage over Israel. Other quotes in Romans 3 establish that likewise, Israelites have no innate advantage over Gentiles. The the whole point of the Romans 3.

The advantage of not "proof-texting" is that one's understanding of truth is improved.

 

[Brightfame52]

That's the fallacy of proof-texting (quoting out of context).

Paul's quote in 3:11 is from Ps 14. The post to which you have replied shows the full text of Ps 14 which says "nobody who claims there is no God seeks God". These fools are compared to "the righteous band".

Clearly, the righteous band are not a part of the category of humanity, "fool", who claim there is no God. Therefore, claiming 3:11 says that no human being seeks God actually means that nobody who denies God seeks Him, and in the context of Psalm 14, those fools are non-Israelites. This illustrates Paul's point that gentiles don't have an innate advantage over Israel. Other quotes in Romans 3 establish that likewise, Israelites have no innate advantage over Gentiles. The the whole point of the Romans 3.

The advantage of not "proof-texting" is that one's understanding of truth is improved.

Again it's plain as day that man under sin does not seek after God, the True God that is Rom 3:9-11

 

[Iconoclast]

Hello AF
Did you notice that the Holy Spirit had Paul quote the part that I responded to you with before? Did you notice in Psalm 14 it says the Lord look down from heaven to see if there were any that didn't understand and seek God and the answer was no not one

 

[ad finitum]

Hello AF
Did you notice that the Holy Spirit had Paul quote the part that I responded to you with before? Did you notice in Psalm 14 it says the Lord look down from heaven to see if there were any that didn't understand and seek God and the answer was no not one

Why did you ask this question? I quoted the entire Psalm in my post. It would seem you did not read any of it except what Paul quoted.

You have not responded to the arguments from context made in Psalm 14, neither the argument made from the definite article in front of "scoundrel", i.e. "fool". "The fool says...", which implies categorically that the designation of "fool" is not a universal one. Psalm 14 doesn't say that the fool/non-seeker is universal among humans. It clearly demonstrates the opposite.

 

[ad finitum]

Again it's plain as day that man under sin does not seek after God, the True God that is Rom 3:9-11

Only if you ignore context. One can define any nonsensical theology by quoting the Bible out of context. People who do that put themselves onto a very wide road crammed with people walking down it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Why did you ask this question? I quoted the entire Psalm in my post. It would seem you did not read any of it except what Paul quoted.

You have not responded to the arguments from context made in Psalm 14, neither the argument made from the definite article in front of "scoundrel", i.e. "fool". "The fool says...", which implies categorically that the designation of "fool" is not a universal one. Psalm 14 doesn't say that the fool/non-seeker is universal among humans. It clearly demonstrates the opposite.

No one cares about your ideas if you ignore the FACT that the Holy Spirit had Paul write that no one seeks God, no not one.
The Holy Spirit had Paul extract these truths from that psalm. Your attempt to explain it away is defective. I do not agree with your " take" on it right from the start anyhow but you will believe what you want.
I will stick with what the HOLY SPIRIThad Paul communicate.
Also you said I avoided Isaiah? I did not avoid anything in fact I did not mention him