Calvinism Fact Sheet #2, by Joel Barnes: Unconditional Election

[Brightfame52]

Only if you ignore context. One can define any nonsensical theology by quoting the Bible out of context. People who do that put themselves onto a very wide road crammed with people walking down it.

What Im saying is within the context, so you ignoring context, and whats highlighted within it. Man naturally under sin does not seek after God, nor understand Him Rom 3:9-11

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

In the original its saying man doesnt seek the favor and worship of the True God. Thats because by nature we are idolaters !

 

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No one cares about your ideas if you ignore the FACT that the Holy Spirit had Paul write that no one seeks God, no not one.

Paul is quoting Psalm 14 which single's out those who say in their hearts that their is no God and who seek the destruction of "the righteous band". It is those who do nothing righteous, no not one. It is they who do not seek God because they claim He doesn't exist.

The Calvinist is accusing Paul of quoting the Bible out of context. That's not what Paul is doing. Those quotes are indexes to passages that Paul's audience already know about. Rather than quote entire chapters, the listener is enjoined to re-read the whole context of the quotes and think about them. Jesus did exactly the same thing in the Gospels.

The Holy Spirit had Paul extract these truths from that psalm. Your attempt to explain it away is defective. I do not agree with your " take" on it right from the start anyhow but you will believe what you want.
I will stick with what the HOLY SPIRIThad Paul communicate.

You didn't stick with Paul's quote of Psalm 5, did you (see Romans 3:13)? What does that Psalm say? It talks about those who have rebelled against God. That would be Israelites. This makes Paul's point in Romans 3 that Jews also are under sin, not only gentiles.

Then in Romans 3:15-18, Paul quotes Isaiah 59:7-8 which talks about how Judah has been separated from God because of their sin, though God's arm is not short that he cannot deliver them. Once again, making the case that the Jews have no advantage over the gentile simply because God gave them the oracles of God. They too can fall under judgement.

The Calvinist doesn't believe in understanding context. It seems the Calvinist HATES context. The Calvinist takes a Talmudic approach to the Bible, finding support for their views with cut/paste sentences that are separated from their context in order to make the Bible say something that it's not saying.

Calvinist treatment of Romans 3 is proof that that is exactly what they are doing. I don't expect to persuade you, but others who read this may re-think what they have been told and look into Paul's quotes for themselves instead of covering their ears and saying, "La, la, la, la, la....".

 

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In the original its saying man doesnt seek the favor and worship of the True God. Thats because by nature we are idolaters !

Paul is quoting the original from Psalm 14, Psalm 5 and Isaiah 29, thereby importing the context of those passages into his letter to the Romans. It is clear, from the entire context, that Paul is not trying to say that no human ever seeks God. The context of Paul's quotations of the Old Testament proves this. To claim otherwise is to claim that God quotes Himself out of Context. That notion is blasphemy because there is one who does quote God's Word out of context and his name is Satan (see Satan's testing of Jesus in the desert).

Consider Paul's argument in Romans 3 without his quotes from the Old Testament. What is he arguing? God gave an advantage to the Jew with the oracles, yet some of them (Israel) did not trust (believe) them. How God deals with this reveals His righteousness and enhances His glory. But then how can God judge the unrighteous, who through their unnrighteousness, actually increase His glory? Paul then says, "Are we better (than Israel) in this regard?" Then he quotes the Old Testament which demonstrate that the unrighteous in Israel and outside of Israel are judged alike for the same reasons, their persecution of those who do believe and are deemed righteous, or they rebel against the heritage of God's faithfulness to deliver.

Now it all makes sense. Paul isn't proof-texting. He's not quoting out of context. He's providing his readers with an index to Old Testament passages that support his point.

This is how we understand Truth, comparing scripture with scripture (not comparing quotes out of context with other quotes out of context). When we do this everywhere, we rightly divide The Word of Truth.

 

[Brightfame52]

Paul is quoting the original from Psalm 14, Psalm 5 and Isaiah 29, thereby importing the context of those passages into his letter to the Romans. It is clear, from the entire context, that Paul is not trying to say that no human ever seeks God. The context of Paul's quotations of the Old Testament proves this. To claim otherwise is to claim that God quotes Himself out of Context. That notion is blasphemy because there is one who does quote God's Word out of context and his name is Satan (see Satan's testing of Jesus in the desert).

Consider Paul's argument in Romans 3 without his quotes from the Old Testament. What is he arguing? God gave an advantage to the Jew with the oracles, yet some of them (Israel) did not trust (believe) them. How God deals with this reveals His righteousness and enhances His glory. But then how can God judge the unrighteous, who through their unnrighteousness, actually increase His glory? Paul then says, "Are we better (than Israel) in this regard?" Then he quotes the Old Testament which demonstrate that the unrighteous in Israel and outside of Israel are judged alike for the same reasons, their persecution of those who do believe and are deemed righteous, or they rebel against the heritage of God's faithfulness to deliver.

Now it all makes sense. Paul isn't proof-texting. He's not quoting out of context. He's providing his readers with an index to Old Testament passages that support his point.

This is how we understand Truth, comparing scripture with scripture (not comparing quotes out of context with other quotes out of context). When we do this everywhere, we rightly divide The Word of Truth.

I know where Paul is quoting from, that doesnt change anything friend. Man under sin doesnt seek after God, nor understand Him.

 

[Iconoclast]

I know where Paul is quoting from, that doesnt change anything friend. Man under sin doesnt seek after God, nor understand Him.

People try and explain away what the Holy Spirit had Paul write. Psalm 14 asks if any sought God. It asks in the form of God looking down and the answer was still NO.

 

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I know where Paul is quoting from, that doesnt change anything friend. Man under sin doesnt seek after God, nor understand Him.

Friend, read your Bible. It will change everything:

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us. Acts 17:26-27

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:19-20​

Not only is sinful man designed to seek God, sinful man already understands about God. If people will become Bible students then perhaps they will not fall into error.

 

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People try and explain away what the Holy Spirit had Paul write. Psalm 14 asks if any sought God. It asks in the form of God looking down and the answer was still NO.

Why do you quote out of context? Psalm 14 asks if any fool sought God. Psalm 14 says those who seek not God try to devour the righteous? Where did the righteous come from. I thought you said nobody seeks God. If they didn't seek Him, how are they called righteous?

A Bible student learns how to read (you know, everything) before drawing conclusions.

 

[Brightfame52]

Friend, read your Bible. It will change everything:

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us. Acts 17:26-27

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:19-20​

Not only is sinful man designed to seek God, sinful man already understands about God. If people will become Bible students then perhaps they will not fall into error.

I read the scripture, how do you think I know that man by nature doesnt seek or understand God ? Its testified in scripture in the OT and NT Ps 14;Rom 3

 

[Iconoclast]

ad finitum,

Why do you quote out of context?

I didn't ,I just understand it.

Psalm 14 asks if any fool sought God[/QUOTE]

You suggest I cannot "read", but I do not see the question mark that you suppose is in the text. The psalm DECLARES SOMETHING ABOUT ....the fool.

It does not" ask" if any fool sought God as you suggest;
here

Psalm 14 asks if any fool sought God.

It asks no such thing.
Lets move to verse2;

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

The psalm declares the condition of the fool, but now expands and tells us In Language anyone can grasp...The Lord looked down from heaven to see something.....what could that be???
IF THERE WERE ANY THAT UNDERSTAND AND SEEK GOD.

That is clear to everyone else but you.

Psalm 14 says those who seek not God try to devour the righteous? Where did the righteous come from.

People are unrighteous, unless and until God grants them repentance and faith at regeneration, like Noah;
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

I thought you said nobody seeks God. If they didn't seek Him, how are they called righteous?

Men do not seek Jesus, He sakes and saves His lost sheep. Not one elect sheep will be lost.
11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

A Bible student learns how to read (you know, everything) before drawing conclusions.

I am glad you feel that way, because maybe you can read and learn here;
Treasury of David—Psalm 14


They are corrupt." This refers to all men, and we have the warrant of the Holy Ghost for so saying; see the third chapter of the epistle to the Romans. Where there is enmity to God, there is deep, inward depravity of mind. The words are rendered by eminent critics in an active sense, "they have done corruptly:" this may serve to remind us that sin is not only in our nature passively as the source of evil, but we ourselves actively fan the flame and corrupt ourselves, making that blacker still which was black as darkness itself
Behold then the eyes of Omniscience ransacking the globe, and prying among every people and nation, "to see if there were any that did understand and seek God." He who is looking down knows the good, is quick to discern it, would be delighted to find it; but as he views all the unregenerate children of men his search is fruitless, for of all the race of Adam, no unrenewed soul is other than an enemy to God and goodness. The objects of the Lord's search are not wealthy men, great men, or learned men; these, with all they can offer, cannot meet the demands of the great Governor: at the same time, he is not looking for superlative eminence in virtue, he seeks for any that understand themselves, their state, their duty, their destiny, their happiness; he looks for any that seek God, who, if there be a God, are willing and anxious to find him out. Surely this is not too great a matter to expect; for if men have not yet known God, if they have any right understanding, they will seek him. Alas! even this low degree of good is not to be found even by him who sees all things: but men love the hideous negation of "No God," and with their backs to their Creator, who is the sun of their life, they journey into the dreary region of unbelief and alienation, which is a land of darkness as darkness itself, and of the shadow of death without any order and where the light is as darkness.
Verse 3. "They are all gone aside." Without exception, all men have apostatized from the Lord their Maker, from his laws, and from all the eternal principles of right. Like stubborn heifers they have sturdily refused to receive the yoke, like errant sheep they have found a gap and left the right field. The original speaks of the race as a whole, as a totality; and humanity as a whole has become depraved in heart and defiled in life. "They have altogether become filthy;"

 

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I read the scripture, how do you think I know that man by nature doesnt seek or understand God ? Its testified in scripture in the OT and NT Ps 14;Rom 3

Ignoring a rebuttal by simply repeating the original claim is the fallacy of argumentum ad nauseam, e.g. "But these go to eleven."

 

[Brightfame52]

That's the fallacy of proof-texting (quoting out of context).

Paul's quote in 3:11 is from Ps 14. The post to which you have replied shows the full text of Ps 14 which says "nobody who claims there is no God seeks God". These fools are compared to "the righteous band".

Clearly, the righteous band are not a part of the category of humanity, "fool", who claim there is no God. Therefore, claiming 3:11 says that no human being seeks God actually means that nobody who denies God seeks Him, and in the context of Psalm 14, those fools are non-Israelites. This illustrates Paul's point that gentiles don't have an innate advantage over Israel. Other quotes in Romans 3 establish that likewise, Israelites have no innate advantage over Gentiles. The the whole point of the Romans 3.

The advantage of not "proof-texting" is that one's understanding of truth is improved.

Again it's as plain as the nose on your face. Man under sin does not seek after God, the True God. He may seek after a God, but not the One True God Rom 3:11

 

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You suggest I cannot "read", but I do not see the question mark that you suppose is in the text. The psalm DECLARES SOMETHING ABOUT ....the fool.

It does not" ask" if any fool sought God as you suggest;
here

It asks no such thing.
Lets move to verse2;

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

The psalm declares the condition of the fool, but now expands and tells us In Language anyone can grasp...The Lord looked down from heaven to see something.....what could that be???
IF THERE WERE ANY THAT UNDERSTAND AND SEEK GOD.

It is interesting that one would try to claim that this short, compact psalm creates a particularly defined category of people in the first verse and then renders them utterly irrelevant for the rest of the psalm. According to your interpretation, the verse could have been dropped and your interpretation of the Psalm would not be altered. Isn't that right? Is that what you think? God wrote something that wasn't needed. God gave us something superfluous?

Let us return to reality. Why do we think Paul quotes from this Psalm? Isn't it because Paul's own letter to the Romans speaks of these same fools in chapter 1? And doesn't Paul then turn this upon believers in chapter 2 who are doing the same thing, exchanging the truth for a faulty theology? Believers who choose to believe nonsense by exchange! So what then? Will those believers caught doing the same thing as the fool not also fall under judgement? Paul is giving us the answer to that question in chapter 3.

 

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Again it's as plain as the nose on your face. Man under sin does not seek after God, the True God. He may seek after a God, but not the One True God Rom 3:11

Already rebutted. Maybe you could address the rebuttal in a way that avoids the common fallacy of argumentum ad nauseam.

You can learn more here: Argumentum ad nauseam - RationalWiki

"Repeating an opinion again and again seems to convince people that it is true — maybe because it simulates the effect of many people having that opinion."​

 

[Brightfame52]

Ignoring a rebuttal by simply repeating the original claim is the fallacy of argumentum ad nauseam, e.g. "But these go to eleven."

Your so called rebuttal is nothing but spam, what I have said remains unscathed.

 

[Brightfame52]

Already rebutted. Maybe you could address the rebuttal in a way that avoids the common fallacy of argumentum ad nauseam.

You can learn more here: Argumentum ad nauseam - RationalWiki

"Repeating an opinion again and again seems to convince people that it is true — maybe because it simulates the effect of many people having that opinion."​

You wasting time and space friend, it is what it is, Man by nature doesnt seek after God. Please quit spamming Gods Word to say absolutely nothing.

 

[37818]

By Nature man doesnt God, none do, jew or gentile Rom 3:11. Its plain as the nose on your face.

What has depravity have to do whether God has or has not set any condition on His election? 2 Peter 1:10, ". . . give diligence to make your calling and election sure: . . ." This cannot be done if there are no conditions to be met.

 

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... Man by nature doesnt seek after God...

Acts 17:
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

BTW, Paul is saying this to unbelievers.

 

[Brightfame52]

What has depravity have to do whether God has or has not set any condition on His election? 2 Peter 1:10, ". . . give diligence to make your calling and election sure: . . ." This cannot be done if there are no conditions to be met.

Salvation is by Grace and not by works/conditions.

 

[Brightfame52]

Acts 17:
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

BTW, Paul is saying this to unbelievers.

That doesnt change anything, if men begin to seek the Lord, they are no longer under sin and they have a new nature, otherwise, men under sin by nature dont seek God. Rom 3:11

 

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That doesnt change anything, if men begin to seek the Lord, they are no longer under sin and they have a new nature, otherwise, men under sin by nature dont seek God. Rom 3:11

Look, please. This is important. Romans 3:11 is a quote from Psalm 14, which says:

Pslam 14

The scoundrel has said in his heart,
"There is no God."
They corrupt, they make loathsome their acts.
There is none who does good.
The LORD from the heavens looked down
on the sons of humankind
to see, is there someone discerning,
someone seeking out God.
​

The word for "scoundrel/fool" in verse one is "NABAL". There was a man by that name in First Samuel with whom David and his men had dealings. All the verses after verse one describe a category of men who are just like him. As you keep reading, do you not get the sense that David is thinking about this man while he is writing? I sure do...

All turn astray,
altogether befouled.
There is none who does good.
There is not even one.
Do they not know,
all wrongdoers?
Devourers of my people devoured them like bread.
They did not call the LORD.
There did they sorely fear,
for God is with the righteous band.
In your plot against the poor you are shamed,
for the LORD is his shelter.
Oh, may from Zion come Israel's rescue
when the LORD restores His people's condition.
May Jacob exult,
May Israel rejoice.​

David had to deal with men like Nabal numerous times in his life. It is clear that Psalm 14 is not talking about "all humans under sin". In fact, it seems to be talking about a particular kind of human, a Nabal kind of human. The description fits Nabal himself. But he is not the only nabal David encountered.