Calvinism is a combination of Theological Fatalism and Determinism, or is it?

[Winman]

Two points:

1. It is impossible to reduce what Scripture tells us about the nature of God into a "sound byte", or slogan, or even a name such as Calvinism. That this is true is shown by the title of this thread and the frequent use of Calvinism as a pejorative.

2. It is frequently the case and is routinely demonstrated on this Baptist Board that many are willing to concede that God is indeed Sovereign until He is confronted with the "free will" of man!

God himself directly says men have free will, and this was regarding true worship of God.

Lev 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

Even Calvinists must agree that not every Jew was saved, but here God himself said that "any" Jew could bring an offering unto the LORD, and that he was to bring it of "his own voluntary will". It doesn't get any clearer than this, this shows all men have free will.

What is more, God guaranteed that any man who brought this free will offering would be accepted by God for an atonement for his sins, so this shows all men can freely WORSHIP God.

Calvinism simply ignores any scripture (and there is volumes) that refutes it.

 

[OldRegular]

Two points:

1. It is impossible to reduce what Scripture tells us about the nature of God into a "sound byte", or slogan, or even a name such as Calvinism. That this is true is shown by the title of this thread and the frequent use of Calvinism as a pejorative.

2. It is frequently the case and is routinely demonstrated on this Baptist Board that many are willing to concede that God is indeed Sovereign until He is confronted with the "free will" of man!

Winman

You responded to the above post. Did I say in that post that man does not have free will? I simply said and I repeat:

It is frequently the case and is routinely demonstrated on this Baptist Board that many are willing to concede that God is indeed Sovereign until He is confronted with the "free will" of man!

 

[Winman]

I get the very distinct feeling that you are quite volatile toward me. I am willing to agree to disagree. But there is no point in having a conversation if you are not willing to HAVE the discussion. Books are more conducive to the venue in which you are trying to operate because it is a one-way statement. But this is a forum where conversations take place and try to understand eachother. I have extended Christian charity toward you and your statements. But the "tone" of your words to me have basically been "shut up and learn from me because I have been debating Calvinism for three years."

You may not care much about what I have to say. You may not think that you should be required to get along with me. You may think it too bad that I might be offended. But God cares about all these things. Look at how his children fight and bicker. What an disgraceful God we serve. God forbid!

The wounds of a friend are faithful. But I don't think you are very much my friend right now. And you would say that it is too bad that I am offended.

In love,

Jon

I have no ill will against you Jon, I have been able to carry on hundreds of very civil discussions with Calvinists here in the past. But my patience is short, especially with arrogant and smart aleck Calvinists (I am not saying you). Many of us here at BB know each other very well and have had dozens of conversations, such as I and EW & F, and Iconoclast. If they want to insult, I can play the game as well as anybody, maybe better. Icon is especially insulting, not just to me, but all non-Cals, you will soon see that is the truth for yourself. I am not going to pamper him.

I really do not have ill will against anyone here, but I am not going to play the sissy either, not my style and never has been. I have never run from any bully, and that is exactly what fellows like Icon are. I have found the best way to handle a bully is to give him a sharp punch in the nose.

 

[Winman]

Winman

You responded to the above post. Did I say in that post that man does not have free will? I simply said and I repeat:

God is sovereign even if man has free will. How does my free will affect God? God can cast any man into hell any time he wants to, just because a man has free will and might rebel against God cannot take away God's power.

This whole Calvinist argument of free will robbing God of his sovereignty is plain stupid. That is the nicest way I can say it.

 

[OldRegular]

This whole Calvinist argument of free will robbing God of his sovereignty is plain stupid. That is the nicest way I can say it.

No person who believes in the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace would agree that the free will of man robs God of His Sovereignty; not even those who assert they are Calvinist. God is either Sovereign or He is not. And if He is not Sovereign He is not God!

It is you, Winman, who argues, most viciously at times, that free will defeats the Sovereignty of God. All on this Forum who have participated in these discussions can attest to that fact.

 

[Iconoclast]

What a laugh, you wouldn't know truth if it walked up and introduced itself to you.

Thank You:thumbs::thumbs: Coming from you...it is a great compliment.:laugh:

You say I am insulting to you when all I did was point out that you do not believe the truth about the fall. In this very thread you say it for yourself......

Perhaps I am a Pelagian, I do not know for certain because I do not know what Pelagius believed, and neither do you. All you know of Pelagius is what his critics have written, which may be true, or perhaps not.

I personally do not care what Pelagius believed, I derive what I believe from reading the scriptures. I have posted scripture to support all my views, and as I believe it was HoS that said not one of you has been able to refute my position from scripture.

While I do not hold to Original Sin, I absolutely believe that all men as soon as they mature and understand right from wrong will willingly and knowingly choose to sin,

EWF, points this out saying you deny the historic faith....so you say he is arrogant? I told you you will not come to truth if you have romans 5 wrong...so of course...I must be insulting????

You can deny all manner of truth....but do not use us as a scapegoat for your error. You have been answered many times over,and yet you never seem to understand what anyone says to you.
You ,Van and several others post these "gems".....

God is sovereign, but that does not equate with God compelling whatsoever comes to pass. In His sovereignty, He call allow others to make choices for or against His desires.

No need to seek refuge in "God's ways are higher than we can comprehend" to justify the absurdity of Calvinism. A simple straightforward explanation is available, just accept what scripture says rather than rewrite it to say the opposite of what it says.

If God predestines all things, whatsoever comes to pass, then God is the author of sin. And very unjust to punish us for doing what He compelled us to do. Therefore why not accept that God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. Pretty simple really.

I will not apologize to anyone who promotes the false doctrines of Calvinism. I don't need to get along with you or have fellowship with you. I believe it utterly false and non-scriptural and will always oppose it. If that offends you, too bad.

I do not have a problem with your false posting and error. When you post such error...we just call you on it as Paul called out Alexander the coppersmith;
14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.

Your vile hatred for the biblical God and His people, both you and Van.....needs to come out...and be repented of....
You both state that you believe the God of Calvinism to be false,{a monster} {You could not believe in this God}........my commenting and pointing it out does not mean it is hateful or insulting. It means that you have invented your own god who does what you want him to do....rather than the biblical God who does as he has decreed, planned ,and purposed to do.
Others who do not understand or believe in the teaching spoken of as calvinism do not hate the God taught in calvinism, or His people. What else can we conclude or post.....you two post against it 24/7. That is your position. We will stick with ours.



Your foolish attempt to use the voluntary offering in leviticus''[it was not required under the law] has nothing to do with mans will at all. It has been explained to you several times.

 

[Winman]

Thank You:thumbs::thumbs: Coming from you...it is a great compliment.:laugh:

Trust me, it was not a compliment. But it is not surprising that you would think it was, you are not a person of true discernment, else you would not believe complete error.

You say I am insulting to you when all I did was point out that you do not believe the truth about the fall. In this very thread you say it for yourself......

I say you are arrogant and insulting when you make snide remarks which you do all too frequently.

EWF, points this out saying you deny the historic faith....so you say he is arrogant? I told you you will not come to truth if you have romans 5 wrong...so of course...I must be insulting????

I don't know what EWF believes, he claims he is not a Calvinist like you, but he always supports Calvinists.

You can deny all manner of truth....but do not use us as a scapegoat for your error. You have been answered many times over,and yet you never seem to understand what anyone says to you.
You ,Van and several others post these "gems".....

This is what I mean by arrogant, you believe that only you and those who are like-minded know the truth, even when scripture that easily refutes your view is shown to you over and over again. As was pointed out in another thread, your theology is based on Reformed creeds, not the word of God.

I do not have a problem with your false posting and error. When you post such error...we just call you on it as Paul called out Alexander the coppersmith;
14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.

You probably really believe you are Paul don't you?

Your vile hatred for the biblical God and His people, both you and Van.....needs to come out...and be repented of....
You both state that you believe the God of Calvinism to be false,{a monster} {You could not believe in this God}........my commenting and pointing it out does not mean it is hateful or insulting. It means that you have invented your own god who does what you want him to do....rather than the biblical God who does as he has decreed, planned ,and purposed to do.
Others who do not understand or believe in the teaching spoken of as calvinism do not hate the God taught in calvinism, or His people. What else can we conclude or post.....you two post against it 24/7. That is your position. We will stick with ours.

Many scholars for hundreds of years have said the god of Calvinism is a monster, that did not begin with me. Perhaps you should pay attention.

Your foolish attempt to use the voluntary offering in leviticus''[it was not required under the law] has nothing to do with mans will at all. It has been explained to you several times.

Of course you deny any scripture that refutes Calvinism. Calvinism is your god, not the God of scripture. You simply parrot the false teachings of all the false teachers before you. You have never had an original thought in your life.

Time will tell. Perhaps someday you will come to the truth.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman

Trust me, it was not a compliment. But it is not surprising that you would think it was, you are not a person of true discernment, else you would not believe complete error.

This is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

I say you are arrogant and insulting when you make snide remarks which you do all too frequently.

It seems that way to you and some others who resist the teaching of the historic church.It has to seem that way......funny thing is....It seems to me that you and others who reject wholesale the writings of historic teachers and set them aside as if they did not read their bible is quite arrogant and explains why your posts are always missing it.
So then you react when others offer correction.

I don't know what EWF believes, he claims he is not a Calvinist like you, but he always supports Calvinists.

Most believe some portions...some all...others reject it.

This is what I mean by arrogant, you believe that only you and those who are like-minded know the truth,

Of course I believe it is the truth.It is directly based on scripture,

even when scripture that easily refutes your view is shown to you over and over again.

In all your posts...you have never come close to refuting anypoint scripturally. You post alot and attempt to use scripture but often not correctly. We explain why and you resist the explanations....over and over.

As was pointed out in another thread, your theology is based on Reformed creeds, not the word of God.

All the confessions and creeds begin with saying the word of God,the scripture is the only rule of faith and practice.It is both arrogant and ignorant to ignore the writing and study of these teachings.
Your posts and others of like mind to you do not come close to offering truth that these godly men offer.

You probably really believe you are Paul don't you?

I have not said anything along this line. Paul did say to use him as an example. I like his strictly Calvinistic teaching. I just need to understand it more...as Calvinist writers are completely Christ centered.

Many scholars for hundreds of years have said the god of Calvinism is a monster, that did not begin with me. Perhaps you should pay attention.

There have been many heretics in church history. I do pay attention when people then and now blaspheme the biblical God.

I will give you credit for finally being honest and owning up to your hatred and rebellion for the God of the Calvinist. It reminds me of this verse:
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

Of course you deny any scripture that refutes Calvinism. Calvinism is your god, not the God of scripture. You simply parrot the false teachings of all the false teachers before you. You have never had an original thought in your life.

Time will tell. Perhaps someday you will come to the truth

You state your opinion and worldview here.

I will ask you....if the God of Calvinism is indeed the biblical God.....would you love and worship Him as revealed and taught????

 

[Winman]

Winman

This is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

Thanks for your permission to believe what I believe is correct, something early Calvinists were not known for.

It seems that way to you and some others who resist the teaching of the historic church.It has to seem that way......funny thing is....It seems to me that you and others who reject wholesale the writings of historic teachers and set them aside as if they did not read their bible is quite arrogant and explains why your posts are always missing it.
So then you react when others offer correction.

Historic Calvinists persecuted and often executed those who disagreed with them.

Most believe some portions...some all...others reject it.

Many Calvinists are inconsistent, rejecting Limited Atonement in particular.

Of course I believe it is the truth.It is directly based on scripture,

It is based on carefully selected proof texts, while ignoring any scripture that refutes it. It is no different than the JWs.

In all your posts...you have never come close to refuting anypoint scripturally. You post alot and attempt to use scripture but often not correctly. We explain why and you resist the explanations....over and over.

I think honest people would say I have presented much scripture that gives Calvinism a serious challenge. You simply ignore any scripture that disagrees with Calvinism.

All the confessions and creeds begin with saying the word of God,the scripture is the only rule of faith and practice.It is both arrogant and ignorant to ignore the writing and study of these teachings.

The Reformed creeds are just like Catholic creeds, of course they all agree with each other, but that does not mean they are scriptural. The Catholics can present scripture to support any of their views, but it is often a total misapplication of scripture. Calvinism is exactly the same.

Your posts and others of like mind to you do not come close to offering truth that these godly men offer.

Again, I believe honest and open-minded people would disagree with you and say that I present a convincing argument. In fact, I believe it was HoS that said that not one of you Calvinists has ever refuted any of my arguments.

You simply are not open-minded. You ignore any scripture that refutes Calvinism. For example, when I presented Lev 1:3 to prove that God himself says men have free will, you simply argued that is not what God said. Pretty difficult to argue that "his own voluntary will" does not mean free will, but that is your argument. Absurd to say the least.

I have not said anything along this line. Paul did say to use him as an example. I like his strictly Calvinistic teaching. I just need to understand it more...as Calvinist writers are completely Christ centered.

Paul was not at all Calvinistic. It is Paul that proves faith precedes receiving the Spirit as I have shown in Gal 3:2, Eph 1:13, and Acts 19:2.

It is Paul that proves an unregenerate man can seek God with the story of the Philipian jailer.

Paul does not support Calvinism whatsoever. Many of my arguments against Calvinism come from Paul's writings. You simply ignore them.

There have been many heretics in church history. I do pay attention when people then and now blaspheme the biblical God.

Do you know what the definition of "irony" is?

I will give you credit for finally being honest and owning up to your hatred and rebellion for the God of the Calvinist. It reminds me of this verse:
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

There is no "God" of Calvinism. Calvinism is utterly false doctrine.

You state your opinion and worldview here.

I will ask you....if the God of Calvinism is indeed the biblical God.....would you love and worship Him as revealed and taught????

That's your problem, the "god" of Calvinism is not the biblical God. The true God did not choose a certain number of people to save, and choose to pass by all the others unconditionally as you falsely teach. The scriptures say Jesus died for all men and that God is not willing that any man should perish. My God loves all men, your god does not.

You have seen all the scriptures that support God desires all men (meaning 100% of all men) to be saved many times. You ignore them, or you redefine words to misinterpret scripture.

Time will tell. God is not mocked.

 

[Iconoclast]

There is no "God" of Calvinism. Calvinism is utterly false doctrine.

Quote:
You state your opinion and worldview here.

I will ask you....if the God of Calvinism is indeed the biblical God.....would you love and worship Him as revealed and taught????

That's your problem, the "god" of Calvinism is not the biblical God. The true God did not choose a certain number of people to save, and choose to pass by all the others unconditionally as you falsely teach. The scriptures say Jesus died for all men and that God is not willing that any man should perish. My God loves all men, your god does not.

I will stick with the biblical God who saves all those He has planned to save.You may stick with your god. We do NOT believe in the same God.

I can be patient with someone who does not understand the teaching...but when someone openly mocks and rebels...this indicates another gospel and another Jesus.

Some will try and bridge the gap saying we believe the same God and gospel....but from your own words that is not the case here. We can leave it at that!

If a person does not believe in particular redemption...they are not a calvinist.They might like some of the calvinistic teaching, they might be well on the way to it, but they cannot rightly be said to be a calvinist.That would be like saying you were playing Chess without the king and queen.

You have seen all the scriptures that support God desires all men (meaning 100% of all men) to be saved many times. You ignore them, or you redefine words to misinterpret scripture.

Time will tell. God is not mocked.

We each one of us will give an account to God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Christian Radical

Most believe some portions...some all...others reject it.

I will tell you exactly what EW&F is ... I am a Christian Radical with Credo Baptist Distinctive. As such, I move beyond the Liberal & Conservative groups & go back to a fundamental questioning of the gospel.

Therefore I am not a modernist or a liberal who wants to update or accommodate the present situation ---that is NOT MY CONCERN. Neither am I a traditionalist or a conservative. As a Christian Radical, I will at different times look like both of these types, yet I am neither of them at all.

My primary concern is "What does Christ demand of me"

And my chief aim is to glorify God & to enjoy him forever. :godisgood:

 

[Iconoclast]

Historic Calvinists persecuted and often executed those who disagreed with them.

They will answer to God also. I do not understand much of what they say historically happened...as far as the conduct and laws the people operated under. I do not know of any Presbyterian who desires to drown baptists today. So they will all give account for what they did in their time.

 

[Winman]

There is no "God" of Calvinism. Calvinism is utterly false doctrine.

I corrected that for you. Still can't figure that quote feature out can you? Yet we are to believe your theology is infallible.

You state your opinion and worldview here.

I will ask you....if the God of Calvinism is indeed the biblical God.....would you love and worship Him as revealed and taught????

As I said before, the "god" of Calvinism is not the God of scriptures.

I will stick with the biblical God who saves all those He has planned to save.You may stick with your god. We do NOT believe in the same God.

You believe in a god of man-made doctrine. The God of scripture is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9). You know this scripture very well, but you redefine the words "any" and "all" to mean only "some" and the "elect". Everybody knows Calvinists redefine these words in the verse, it is common knowledge.

I can be patient with someone who does not understand the teaching...but when someone openly mocks and rebels...this indicates another gospel and another Jesus.

I agree, you preach another gospel.

Some will try and bridge the gap saying we believe the same God and gospel....but from your own words that is not the case here. We can leave it at that!

I guess we will have to leave it at that. Time will tell who is correct.

If a person does not believe in particular redemption...they are not a calvinist.They might like some of the calvinistic teaching, they might be well on the way to it, but they cannot rightly be said to be a calvinist.That would be like saying you were playing Chess without the king and queen.

No, I do not believe in Particular or Limited Atonement. And many so-called Calvinists do not either, because they cannot ignore the many scriptures that say Christ died for all men and that God desires all men be saved. You are able to ignore these scriptures, these persons are not.

One thing you should think about, if Particular or Limited Atonement is true, then you do not know for certain Jesus died for you. It is impossible for you to know that if your doctrine is true. You can jump up and down claiming you know you are elect, I know better, you cannot possibly know that, because you do not know who Jesus died for, and who he did not.

Good luck on that one.

We each one of us will give an account to God.

Sure will.

 

[Iconoclast]

Do not worry about my use of the quote feature ,when you cannot quote a verse accurately;

The God of scripture is not willing that any should perish

The bible does not say or teach this anywhere. You leave out the part of the verse that explains it ..according to "winman"...no thanks. I will just stay with those who believe it as written.
God is quite willing that many sinners perish...mt 7 ;21-24

Millions are in hell tonight waiting for millions to follow....who trusted in a false hope.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

OK, quick question for you Winman....your statement last post

" ...Christ died for all men and that God desires all men be saved"

Question: If God desires all men to be saved, then why arent they?

 

[Winman]

OK, quick question for you Winman....your statement last post

" ...Christ died for all men and that God desires all men be saved"

Question: If God desires all men to be saved, then why arent they?

Come on EWF, this is the oldest question in the book! You know very well that non-Cals believe that a person must freely receive Jesus as their personal Saviour by faith to be saved. If they do not receive and believe on Jesus, then they die in their sins. Salvation is a free gift from God, but we are required to receive it by faith.

An analogy might be a wedding ring, salvation is compared to a marriage many times in scripture. A fellow can offer a young lady a wedding ring and ask her to marry him. The fellow paid for the ring, all the girl has to do is freely accept it. But the girl can say no and refuse.

Salvation is exactly the same, Jesus died for our sins. We can freely accept this and be married to Jesus, or we can refuse and say no.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

OK, quick question for you Winman....your statement last post

" ...Christ died for all men and that God desires all men be saved"

Question: If God desires all men to be saved, then why arent they?

Let's see.....maybe this is entirely too complicated...possibly, it might be similar to the reason I both wanted a haircut from my barber last week, but did not get one until this week. I wanted it last week, and I possessed the money to get it, but I also wanted to save the 12 bucks it costs to get one until this paycheck. Thus, I chose to wait until this week (after my new pay-check) to get one. God desires two things at least:

1.) That all will be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth

2.) That they do so freely and without compulsion.

Although He COULD compel them...he doesn't want to.

I Could afford the 12 bucks for my haircut last week, but I wanted to wait until this paycheck to spend that money. Do Calvinist teachers not at least explain that basic concept that non-Cal heretics believe? It's a simple concept.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Come on EWF, this is the oldest question in the book! You know very well that non-Cals believe that a person must freely receive Jesus as their personal Saviour by faith to be saved. If they do not receive and believe on Jesus, then they die in their sins. Salvation is a free gift from God, but we are required to receive it by faith.

An analogy might be a wedding ring, salvation is compared to a marriage many times in scripture. A fellow can offer a young lady a wedding ring and ask her to marry him. The fellow paid for the ring, all the girl has to do is freely accept it. But the girl can say no and refuse.

Salvation is exactly the same, Jesus died for our sins. We can freely accept this and be married to Jesus, or we can refuse and say no.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Doesnt make any sense......If God desires ALL to be Saved, then logically ALL would be saved. Otherwise God is really impotent. Anyway thats the way I see it. Logical Right!

 

[Winman]

Do not worry about my use of the quote feature ,when you cannot quote a verse accurately;


The bible does not say or teach this anywhere. You leave out the part of the verse that explains it ..according to "winman"...no thanks. I will just stay with those who believe it as written.
God is quite willing that many sinners perish...mt 7 ;21-24

Millions are in hell tonight waiting for millions to follow....who trusted in a false hope.

You just go on and believe what you want Icon. And good luck on being one of the fortunate elect, because I know for a fact you do not know for certain if you are one. And you can't WILL it to be so no matter how hard you try.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Doesnt make any sense......If God desires ALL to be Saved, then logically ALL would be saved. Otherwise God is really impotent. Anyway thats the way I see it. Logical Right!

NO, simply...no. You are suggesting, in fact, a deduction constructed like this:

1.If God wanted all to be saved then all would be saved
2.All are not saved
-Therefore: God does not want all to be saved

Here is the problem:

We reject premise 1

It is a valid argument, meaning the conclusion would be true assumming all the premises were true. but it isn't sound, because premise 1 is false.