Calvinism is the Gospel

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

So you were saved, experienced the power of God unto salvation (the gospel) in your own life.

it did not happen in a conventional way so I do not often speak about it.
I bought a bible to find the errors and contradictions in it. [a three dollar hardcover from a second-hand store} I had never read a bible and was completely biblically illiterate.
I was ashamed I was reading it, did not tell anyone. A nurse was going to move in with me when she finished at mayo Clinic in December. I had just bought my first starter house.
I would read alone each day, got to the genealogies, did not understand what that was about, got bored by priestly laws and rituals, and had no understanding. I knew about the creation, fall, flood, but stopped reading there.
In a few days I picked it back up and opened it randomly and found the gospels which i knew a few of the stories.
I did not know anything, I did not know what the chapter and verse numbers meant. I did not know what it meant Old Covenant, New Covenant....nothing.

Long story short/ after about 4 months I was intensely convicted about a few verses which I did not have full understanding of at that time, but I got the main idea...
Lk12:
2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

I was alone in my small living room but was totally convicted of my guilt and sin. Did not know how to pray, but recalled this;
mk10:
47 And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou son of David, have mercy on me.

48 And many charged him that he should hold his peace: but he cried the more a great deal, Thou son of David, have mercy on me.

I asked God to have mercy on me and forgive my sins.
After that, the verses seemed to jump off the page.

Praise God. I love to hear people relate their conversion experience. It is always the same from one perspective (it is the work of God) but our experiences are different.

I was not looking for God, but looking to resist, That is how i am certain Salvation is of the Lord.
The girl said she would not move in with me, no one was going to tell her about God, lost some college friends, had cults come around trying to steal the word like the fowls of the air.

So you were saved and attended a conservative Baptist church. How did you end up accepting Calvinism?

I never "accepted it". I did not know it existed for the first part of my Christian life.
What I did do was start using a yellow highlighter and underling every verse that was similar to Eph1:3-14....like here;
Titus1;
Titus 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
1thess2.
12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

I had legal pads filled with such verses and underlined by Scofield bible...
The Conservative Baptist church was very basic, at least the Pastor did preach repentance.
Like this;
http://baptiststudiesonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/declaration-of-faith-cba.pdf


The men would study Gene Getz on the measure of a man, or some such title. There was some learning and growth, before the friction took place...lol

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

Earlier you asked how I understood the term "good news" or "gospel". I said that it does not matter to the context of the post because it does not. I did not want to hijack the thread and make it something it something other than related to "Calvinism is the gospel".

But I do believe in having an answer for those who ask. I referenced D.A. Carson earlier. He said most people confuse the gospel with their understanding of the gospel, an explanation of the gospel, a need for the gospel, or what they see as the results of the gospel. I like his definition of the gospel:

In the fullness of time his [God's] Son comes and takes on human nature. He comes not, in the first instance, to judge but to save: he dies the death of his people, rises from the grave and, in returning to his heavenly Father, bequeaths the Holy Spirit as the down payment and guarantee of the ultimate gift he has secured for them—an eternity of bliss in the presence of God himself, in a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

[/QUOTE]

okay...that is a solid working explanation of it.
Now notice, he goes outside of the historical details listed in 1cor15:1-4

In the same exact way, my contention is...Calvinism
[correctly understood, preached and taught} is of necessity , the Gospel summed up from all 66 books, not just 1 cor15, the four spiritual flaws, or the romans road.

It is not just the bare five points without explanation.
I referenced Spurgeon and he said the same thing, he could not dream of preaching the cross without particular redemption at the heart of it. Not one of the other virews makes any reference to the Covenant keeping God...doing just that in the Covenant of Redemption.
Not one of the non cals has ever in ten years on here did such, or offered edifying teaching on such matters.
If any non Cal feels they have done so, post the link, or links, I do not recall it
Most of those Cals who did have been chased off, or have gotten frustrated with the juvenile antics day after day.

Where is Rippon, Archangel, Biblicist, SG, P4T, Luke 24, Bosley, Greek Tim, Reformed Baptist,and several others?

Calvinism as a teaching, Calvinists in general search it out in detail.
The others, for the most part, talk a big game but post very little helpful or edifying.

 

[JonC]

JonC,

Earlier you asked how I understood the term "good news" or "gospel". I said that it does not matter to the context of the post because it does not. I did not want to hijack the thread and make it something it something other than related to "Calvinism is the gospel".

My question was more in the line of "Calvinism is the gospel".

Most of the time when I encounter that phrase it is associated with C.H. Spurgeon. But most of the time it is absent the idea that this is subjective (it is of an opinion) based on the mind's natural inclination (it is an understanding). What Spurgeon included was "I suppose there are some persons whose minds naturally incline towards the doctrine of free-will. I can only say that mine inclines as naturally towards the doctrines of sovereign grace..... I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else." Those little clarifications mean the difference between someone understanding the gospel in terms of Calvinism, Arminianism, etc. or holding their understanding in place of the gospel.

It is in a way a very little difference, but it makes all the difference in the world. That was what I was trying to get at (I was trying to understand where you and Scott actually stood).

I do not mind people coming to and leaving the forum. I liked Rippon. He was banned. Preacher4Truth was banned before I joined the staff. SoveriegnGrace was here 3 weeks and 5 days ago (I have not interacted with him in ages). Greektim was here a week ago. Archangel wwas here this morning. I don't think I know the others you list. There are at least just as many from the other camp that has left as well. This happens most often, I believe, with people obsessed with the Cal/Arm section of the forum. People get aggravated on all sides and decide to attack. I suppose much of the issue is people have strong feelings for a debate that can never be resolved outside of personal opinion on this side of the grave. People will disagree. Some will get their feelings hurt and leave. Some will outgrow the argument and leave. Others will fill their place.

Arminianism is a teaching that those who hold it have searched it out in detail and prayer. So is free-will theology. So is Christus-Victor Theory. So is Penal Substitution Theory. And so is Calvinism.

When people attack other people they have moved beyond legitimate debate all together. This is a difficult forum. Many who argue in this forum probably should not. Winning an online debate on a discussion forum is not worth the depravity some stoop in insulting other people for whom Christ died.

 

[agedman]

JonC,

Earlier you asked how I understood the term "good news" or "gospel". I said that it does not matter to the context of the post because it does not. I did not want to hijack the thread and make it something it something other than related to "Calvinism is the gospel".

But I do believe in having an answer for those who ask. I referenced D.A. Carson earlier. He said most people confuse the gospel with their understanding of the gospel, an explanation of the gospel, a need for the gospel, or what they see as the results of the gospel. I like his definition of the gospel:

In the fullness of time his [God's] Son comes and takes on human nature. He comes not, in the first instance, to judge but to save: he dies the death of his people, rises from the grave and, in returning to his heavenly Father, bequeaths the Holy Spirit as the down payment and guarantee of the ultimate gift he has secured for them—an eternity of bliss in the presence of God himself, in a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

okay...that is a solid working explanation of it.
Now notice, he goes outside of the historical details listed in 1cor15:1-4

In the same exact way, my contention is...Calvinism
[correctly understood, preached and taught} is of necessity , the Gospel summed up from all 66 books, not just 1 cor15, the four spiritual flaws, or the romans road.

It is not just the bare five points without explanation.
I referenced Spurgeon and he said the same thing, he could not dream of preaching the cross without particular redemption at the heart of it. Not one of the other virews makes any reference to the Covenant keeping God...doing just that in the Covenant of Redemption.
Not one of the non cals has ever in ten years on here did such, or offered edifying teaching on such matters.
If any non Cal feels they have done so, post the link, or links, I do not recall it
Most of those Cals who did have been chased off, or have gotten frustrated with the juvenile antics day after day.

Where is Rippon, Archangel, Biblicist, SG, P4T, Luke 24, Bosley, Greek Tim, Reformed Baptist,and several others?

Calvinism as a teaching, Calvinists in general search it out in detail.
The others, for the most part, talk a big game but post very little helpful or edifying.

Although I admittedly am not a full Calvinists, I do recognize that the Gospel in presentation can not be presented without at least a nod to the foundational structures.

Those being:

1) A sinner, held in bondage to sin and the prince of darkness is without any innate ability because their mind and heart are fixed upon the desires of the flesh. In that they are therefore, dead and "condemned already." Such are by nature rebelliously waiting the wrath of God.

2) God's grace, that unmerited favor, has taken as He desires those that He has named as His own unto Himself for His good pleasure. He does not condemn the rest, for they are condemned already. Such as hear His voice are called His sheep, and they will come to Him, for He is the shepherd and He knows the sheep by name.

3) God's work of atonement is in two direct acts. One is the shed blood, and the other the death/resurrection. Both are linked, and yet accomplish two separate goals. The blood was shed without regard for the whole of creation, not merely humankind, but all that God created. However the death and resurrection of the Savior benefit only the believer. For the believer is not condemned, but is given eternal life. The shed blood for all creation fulfills that authority over all in which was once held and offered to Christ in the temptation, but now by blood is held under the authority of the Son.

4) God (The Father) has established Redemption (not just the plan but the accomplishment) from the beginning of Creation. God did not need to add nor revise His plan, but choose as He desired to shower mercy upon those of His choosing and allowing all others to fulfill condemnation. The

5) One who has been established by the Father as redeemed cannot ever be separated from the Father. That person will, by the providence of the Father, both persevere and be preserved by His authority and Grace, and for His purpose.
​

The call then goes out to all people.
Come be reconciled.
See that the Lord is Good.
Cast all your cares upon Him.
Take upon yourself His yoke and not your own.

Christ never ask anyone to pray to accept Him, for He doesn't need your acceptance.

Christ states, "Come unto me, ... I will make you fishers of men..."

He uses declarative statements.
He doesn't ask.

"My sheep hear..." "...follow me"

 

[Iconoclast]

agedman,

Although I admittedly am not a full Calvinists, I do recognize that the Gospel in presentation can not be presented without at least a nod to the foundational structures.

I believe of necessity everyone who is a true believer is a Calvinist.
Some struggle with this point or that point.
many godly people in church history did not hold all 5 in full.
JC Ryle struggled with the L for example.
he did not dismiss it in full, but could not come to a settled position.
That being said, his works on Holiness and Practical Religion set a high standard that any believer would profit from.
I do not worry about it, but try and remove obstacles when a person is searching. Some search on here, but most are in attack mode against the truth which I know as Calvinism.
I believe once each piece falls into place, there is no turning back, just a desire to learn more and communicate it to others.

Those being:

1) A sinner, held in bondage to sin and the prince of darkness is without any innate ability because their mind and heart are fixed upon the desires of the flesh. In that they are therefore, dead and "condemned already." Such are by nature rebelliously waiting the wrath of God.

2) God's grace, that unmerited favor, has taken as He desires those that He has named as His own unto Himself for His good pleasure. He does not condemn the rest, for they are condemned already. Such as hear His voice are called His sheep, and they will come to Him, for He is the shepherd and He knows the sheep by name.

3) God's work of atonement is in two direct acts. One is the shed blood, and the other the death/resurrection. Both are linked, and yet accomplish two separate goals. The blood was shed without regard for the whole of creation, not merely humankind, but all that God created. However the death and resurrection of the Savior benefit only the believer. For the believer is not condemned, but is given eternal life. The shed blood for all creation fulfills that authority over all in which was once held and offered to Christ in the temptation, but now by blood is held under the authority of the Son.

4) God (The Father) has established Redemption (not just the plan but the accomplishment) from the beginning of Creation. God did not need to add nor revise His plan, but choose as He desired to shower mercy upon those of His choosing and allowing all others to fulfill condemnation. The

5) One who has been established by the Father as redeemed cannot ever be separated from the Father. That person will, by the providence of the Father, both persevere and be preserved by His authority and Grace, and for His purpose.​

Now we have substantial agreement here in the highlighted portions.. We could go to a nursing home, or prison and present the gospel in a close enough fashion that people who are not believers would not detect the difference.
​

The call then goes out to all people.
Come be reconciled.
See that the Lord is Good.
Cast all your cares upon Him.
Take upon yourself His yoke and not your own.

Christ never ask anyone to pray to accept Him, for He doesn't need your acceptance.

Christ states, "Come unto me, ... I will make you fishers of men..."

He uses declarative statements.
He doesn't ask.

"My sheep hear..." "...follow me"[/QUOTE]

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

Arminianism is a teaching that those who hold it have searched it out in detail and prayer. So is free-will theology. So is Christus-Victor Theory. So is Penal Substitution Theory. And so is Calvinism.

I do not agree with you here at all.
Have people studied these ideas, yes they have.
Have they studied the scriptures in detail? No, I do not believe so.
What I am saying is this.....when clear teaching is offered,ie, Jn 3;15,16 speaks of every believing one...it is not disputable, then people see it and discount it, insist on whosoever will being in the passage, that is not studying it out in detail, but is in fact a turning from the truth
There is no easy way to say this...they are denying the truth. Every theory that comes down the pike, does not displace truth clearly revealed which I see Calvinism pure and simple.

You continue to speak in terms of Theory....this theory , penal substitution theory, Christus-Victor....
then you lump Calvinism in, along with speaking against penal substitutionary atonement which is at the heart of the gospel.
You are welcome to believe what you want, but in case you have not noticed martin marprelate{aka Steve Owen, and Biblicist } have in times past and even times present in other places totally answered anything you have offered.
In fact we know what happened 11 months ago, but i will not dwell on it, but mention it, as we both know what happened that night.
Now no one stopped you from believing what you do. No one called you names, , edited or banned you, they just answered you scripturally. You went after them, they responded very intensely but biblically.
On one or two areas, i challenged Biblicist and he was up to the task, and offered me correction, and in several places, i think he has helped me. I do not see any who offer correction as an enemy.

Some on here show themselves as enemies, mostly opposing themselves however.
I do not believe in censorship, which you claimed i was being hypocritical when questioning a post if it was according to the rules.
it was quite a stretch to infer that don't you think?
Those are the kind of actions that get noticed and raise the temperature, not the subject of this OP>

When people attack other people they have moved beyond legitimate debate all together.

Do you think this goes both ways?
can a moderator do the same thing, especially if he does double duty as a poster, and then all of a sudden put his moderator hat on?

The posts get heated up, but sometimes you have to let it flow and let posters express what they want, even if you find it distasteful.
I think many examples can be found every day of the others going on the attack.

I believe truth will win out, if it goes forth on equal footing.
Not for each person, but for those who are seeking truth.

 

[InTheLight]

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Apparently Scott is calling non-Calvinists "vessels fit for destruction".

 

[JonC]

Have they studied the scriptures in detail? No, I do not believe so.

This is a logical fallacy (entitled to own opinion fallacy which is a along the lines of a red herring). In an argument we are not entitled to opinions we cannot defend with evidence.

Can a moderator do the same thing, especially if he does double duty as a poster, and then all of a sudden put his moderator hat on?

No. This is why we do not moderate posts that we have engaged. This is a red herring.

Also, you may be wrong about persons. Biblicist is not The_Biblicist. I think you have confused the two.

It seems you are trying to build up hostility (my opinion) . I say this because you mentioned some people (I guess your friends) who you claim to have been driven away and seem to try to lay that on me. Yet Archangel was here this morning, Greek Tim was here a week ago, SovereignGrace was here about 3 weeks ago... I was not on staff when P4T was banned, I do not know why Rippon was banned, I was friends with Biblicist,.... (evidence supporting my opinion) ... I do not know why you are trying to go down this road.

 

[Iconoclast]

This is a logical fallacy (entitled to own opinion fallacy which is a along the lines of a red herring). In an argument we are not entitled to opinions we cannot defend with evidence.
No. This is why we do not moderate posts that we have engaged. This is a red herring.

Also, you may be wrong about persons. Biblicist is not The_Biblicist. I think you have confused the two.

It seems you are trying to build up hostility (my opinion) . I say this because you mentioned some people (I guess your friends) who you claim to have been driven away and seem to try to lay that on me. Yet Archangel was here this morning, Greek Tim was here a week ago, SovereignGrace was here about 3 weeks ago.. (evidence supporting my opinion) ... I do not know why you are trying to go down this road.

 

[Iconoclast]

I was just responding to things you have said, and speaking plainly to you. As soon as I do you get accusative and defensive. Listen, i have no need to speak plainly to you so i will just deal with others. Do not ask me questions if you do not want an honest answer.

You say this;

it seems you are trying to build up hostility (my opinion) . I say this because you mentioned some people (I guess your friends) who you claim to have been driven away and seem to try to lay that on me.

I do not claim anything. I know what i am talking about, because they have communicated with me. nevermind. Do not ask me anything if you do not want a straight answer.

 

[JonC]

@Iconoclast,

Steering back to the OP:

Calvinism itself is probable one of the most, if not the most, simplest of the soteriological systems (especially divorced from historic Calvinism as a whole). How do you account for those who reject Calvinism while understanding the teaching?

 

[JonC]

I was just responding to things you have said, and speaking plainly to you. As soon as I do you get accusative and defensive. Listen, i have no need to speak plainly to you so i will just deal with others. Do not ask me questions if you do not want an honest answer.

You say this;


I do not claim anything. I know what i am talking about, because they have communicated with me. nevermind. Do not ask me anything if you do not want a straight answer.

Why so much hate and hostility? I was not being rude to you.

I was just saying at least three of those YOU claim have been driven away were on fact here recently (GreekTim a week ago, Archangel this morning, and SovereignGrace 3 weeks ago) . That is a fact, not an accusation.

I was saying I was not I volved with Preacher4Truth being banned (although it was a good call). That also is a fact, not an accusation.

I never had an issue with Rippon and was not involved in him being banned. Again, this is a fact and not an accusation.

It seems that the facts cannot support your claims. If you were told otherwise then perhaps someone was playing you for a fool. You should have checked out the facts before running with the gossip.

The point is Christians can unwittingly become involved in such things. That is why we all need to be careful and check out information before we end up making false claims. The best practice is to simply avoid gossip all together.

 

[utilyan]

Are you mocking Calvinism and scripture? Your post is provocative.

Romans 9
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Obviously God is mocking, since the brother didn't have a choice and God ordained it.

 

[agedman]

I wonder if the final messenger from God to all the world will be concerned with other than the Gospel?

6Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. 7And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

8Another angel, a second, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality.”

9And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

13And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”


14Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand.15And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” 16So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped.

17Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” 19So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse’s bridle, for 1,600 stadia.​

The single aspect, imo, that separates the cal and non-cal concerning the gospel is found in the above passage.

It is contained in a single word, “Sovereign.”

Fear God, worship Him, He created all things.

The question I would ask is in which reaping will you find yourself?

“12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.”

Notice this call is for the saints.

It is not for everyone, but specific to the saints.

Those who are His persevere, are preserved, and serve to the end.

 

[Scott Downey]

Apparently Scott is calling non-Calvinists "vessels fit for destruction".

Another mocking comment on the scripture quoted from you..

 

[JonC]

People need to understand the difference between their understanding and Scripture, between their understanding of the gospel and the gospel itself, from their views about the gospel and what the gospel actually says.

Ignorance is not an excuse to cram one's understanding, philosophy, theories, and theologies down other people's throats.

For those who cannot function except within an echo chamber, go find one. This board was designed for Christians (mainly for Baptists) to fellowship and discuss/ debate doctrine.

If you are offended that people disagree with you then you are in the wrong place. Grow up.

Iron sharpening Iron does not mean sitting in the choir criticizing anyone you suspect sings off key.

If you claim Christ then act in a Christian manner. Stop trying to force others to drink your kool-aid.

This thread is closed. The OP was asinine to begin with. If there is any DOCTRINE that needs to be discussed then start a grown up thread.