Calvinism: more evangelistic?

[Tom Butler]

Obviously Cary believed in free-will as well as election.

Yep, he did. And here's a list of other Calvinists who share that belief:

John Gill

A determination of the will to some one thing, is not contrary to choice, for the human will of Christ, and the will of angels and glorified saints, are determined only to that which is good, and yet they both choose and do that good freely . . . . Besides, neither the disability of man, nor the efficacious influence of grace, at all hinder the freedom of human actions. A wicked man, who is under the strongest bias, power, and dominion of his lusts, acts freely in fulfilling of them; as does also a good man, in doing what is spiritually good; and never more so, than when he is under the most powerful influences of divine grace. (Cause of God and Truth, pp. 184, 185).

A. H. Strong

Free agency is the power of self-determination in view of motives or man's power (a) to choose between motives, and (b) direct his subsequent activity according to the motive thus chosen (Systematic Theology, p. 176).

Jonathan Edwards

....the "power, opportunity or
advantage that any one has to do as he pleases. (Freedom of the will p. 17).

To sum up, man always acts freely within his nature.

Even if we see this question differently, we have a clear, unmistakable mandate to carry the gospel wherever we go, and wherever we can. When Jesus said "you shall be my witnesses, in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and to the uttermost parts of the earth," it was not just a mandate. It was an assumption that believers would be witnesses as a natural outgrowth of their faith.

 

[preacher4truth]

Yep, he did. And here's a list of other Calvinists who share that belief:

John Gill


A. H. Strong


Jonathan Edwards


To sum up, man always acts freely within his nature.

So you're saying that Jonathan Edwards believed man has freewill?

 

[Luke2427]

Yea, it looks like I got my numbers mixed up. The PCA site says:

The PCA is one of the faster growing denominations in the United States, with over 1450 churches and missions throughout the USA and Canada. There were over 306,000 communicant and non-communicant members as of December 2000.

and...

The PCA's influence extends far beyond the walls of the local church. Through Mission to the World, about 600 foreign missionaries are working in about 60 nations. Because of the unique relationship between Mission to the World and over 30 mission agencies with which some of PCA's missionaries are working, many people consider PCA's influence to be far greater than its size might indicate. Further, with close to 160 chaplains in the military and in hospitals, the Gospel is proclaimed to a rather large audience around the world not reached through usual ecclesiastical channels. Because of the emphasis on education, many members of the PCA are teachers and professors at all levels of education, including large universities and quite a few theological seminaries.

I apologize.

But the math still has the PCA, a thoroughly clavinistic denomination, far more evangelistic than the SBC.

Especially when you consider that the 600 does not include the, perhaps considerable, number of PCA missionaries who work with other Presby organizations besides Mission to the World.

 

[seekingthetruth]

I am searching. I may have to apologize. I see there are 1400 churches in the PCA. I researched this stat about a week ago and may have gotten the figures mixed.

I am fixing to go to town. If I cannot find the figures I will offer an apology.

I will continue to argue this point due to what Ruiz rightly points out. Even if it is 600 missionaries rather than the 1400 I posted, it is still more than SBC.

Thank you for your patience as I try to research this today and I apologize for my numbers if I did indeed get them mixed up.

Someone on this board recently said that if a person doesn't have a complete knowledge through much study and references on a subject that they should remain silent.

Maybe you should listen to your own preaching.

John

 

[jbh28]

Famous Calvinist that were evangelistic.


Adoniram Judson – Famous Missionary
William Carey – Father of modern missions
John Bunyan – Pilgrim’s Progress
Charles Spurgeon – Famous Baptist Preacher “Prince of Preachers”
Luther Rice - - Missionary to India
John Newton – Hymn Writer “Amazing Grace”
Isaac Watts – Many hymns including “Alas! And Did My Savior Bleed?”
Jonathan Edwards – Missionary “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”
George Whitfield – Evangelist, big part of the Great Awakening
Augustus Toplady – Hymn Writer “Rock of Ages”
John Eliot – Missionary to American Indians
William Cowper – Hymn Writer “There is a Fountain filled with Blood”
Joseph Hart – Hymn Writer “Come, Ye Sinners”
Matthew Henry – Commentator
John Patton - Missionary
David Brainerd – Missionary
John Foxe – Foxe’s Book of Martyrs

 

[Skandelon]

But the math still has the PCA, a thoroughly clavinistic denomination, far more evangelistic than the SBC.

As a former Calvinist myself, I will gladly concede the point that Calvinists are just as evangelistic as non-Calvinists, but I must take issue with this statement.

In 2010:
PCA reported 1455 churches with 346 thousand members
SBC has over 37,000 churches with over 16 million members

That stat in itself should tell you something about the evangelistic growth over the life span of these two denominations.

PCA reported 7935 baptisms in 2010 (2621 Adult baptisms and 5314 infant) (about 5.5 per church)
SBC reported 332,321 baptisms in 2010 (about 9 per church)

At last count the Southern Baptist Convention employed 4,857 "home" missionaries (in the United States, Puerto Rico, Canada, Guam, American Samoa, and the Virgin Islands) and 4,137 foreign missionaries (in 130 nations), for a total of nearly nine thousand missionaries worldwide.

So, to claim the PCA is more evangelistic than the SBC is kind of like saying your local pee-wee football team likes playing football more than the Dallas Cowboys. I think we can both admit both teams like playing football and pointing out their game stats doesn't prove one of them likes it more.

 

[Ruiz]

As a former Calvinist myself, I will gladly concede the point that Calvinists are just as evangelistic as non-Calvinists, but I must take issue with this statement.

In 2010:
PCA reported 1455 churches with 346 thousand members
SBC has over 37,000 churches with over 16 million members

That stat in itself should tell you something about the evangelistic growth over the life span of these two denominations.

PCA reported 7935 baptisms in 2010 (2621 Adult baptisms and 5314 infant) (about 5.5 per church)
SBC reported 332,321 baptisms in 2010 (about 9 per church)

At last count the Southern Baptist Convention employed 4,857 "home" missionaries (in the United States, Puerto Rico, Canada, Guam, American Samoa, and the Virgin Islands) and 4,137 foreign missionaries (in 130 nations), for a total of nearly nine thousand missionaries worldwide.

So, to claim the PCA is more evangelistic than the SBC is kind of like saying your local pee-wee football team likes playing football more than the Dallas Cowboys. I think we can both admit both teams like playing football and pointing out their game stats doesn't prove one of them likes it more.

The stat is a little deceptive. The SBC is over 150 years old. The PCA began in December of 1973. As well, the SBC began with a large number of churches as a result of great revivals in the 18th and 19th Century, many of which began with Calvinistic origins. The PCA began with a 260 churches who left the PC-USA. So, I think they have done fairly well.

As for Baptisms, that is distinctly a Baptist criterion. The fact is, most of the people SBCers baptized last year cannot be found.

 

[Tom Butler]

So you're saying that Jonathan Edwards believed man has freewill?

Here's the quote again:

....the "power, opportunity or
advantage that any one has to do as he pleases. (Freedom of the will p. 17).

Did I quote him incorrectly?

 

[preacher4truth]

Here's the quote again:

Did I quote him incorrectly?

That's cute Tom, I've already read it once. It's taken out of context.

The failure here is you've made an error not knowing that Edwards is simply defining what freewill would mean and can't mean in the early pages of his book. He also show errors of other theologies in their definitions.

Do I need to ask my question again?

 

[Iconoclast]

He was a hyper-calvinist. If you look at the issue, they were sending a Calvinist overseas. The missionaries were Andrew Murray and Adonirom Judson, both Calvinists, who founded the modern missions movement.

Yes, there are some people who are hyper-calvinists. There are also bad examples of non-hyper-calvinists. Yet, overall, we have been consistently evangelistic. Where would we be without Jonathan Edwards and George Whitfield? How has Murray and Judson changed our world? What about Spurgeon? Can anyone doubt Piper's commitment to missions or D. James Kennedy's commitment to evangelism?

We can get anecdotal evidence to support our cause. Yet, the record is so full of great evangelists from Calvinists that it really is hard to argue against the entirety of the record.

He is not interested in the facts, he just wants to oppose that which he does not understand

 

[Tom Butler]

That's cute Tom, I've already read it once. It's taken out of context.

The failure here is you've made an error not knowing that Edwards is simply defining what freewill would mean and can't mean in the early pages of his book. He also show errors of other theologies in their definitions.

Do I need to ask my question again?

No. Your point is valid. I did not excerpt the Edwards quote directly from his book, but from another writing which quoted him. So I went directly to Edwards writing, and found that you are correct. Thanks for helping put it in perspective.

In the meantime, I think the others I quoted are good examples of the point I was making.

 

[preacher4truth]

No. Your point is valid. I did not excerpt the Edwards quote directly from his book, but from another writing which quoted him. So I went directly to Edwards writing, and found that you are correct. Thanks for helping put it in perspective.

In the meantime, I think the others I quoted are good examples of the point I was making.

Appreciated.

I think if you take a good long gander at Gill, he is saying mans will is in bondage, that a person can make choices in many things, but spiritually that man is in bondage to sinful desires, and without divine aid (which he does believe) will not spiritually make the right choice.

The will of Christ, glorified saints, angels: free. Gill clarifies this.

The freedom of "human actions" that he mentions is not spiritual freedom, it is merely human actions. He is comparing from one freedom to another, human actions to spiritual, to draw distinction. He then in his last statement that you've supplied, is comparing the wicked (lost) from the spiritual (saved.)

Jesus teaches us that we are not free, but in Him we will be free as per John 8.

Apologies for getting the OP off-track.

 

[Tom Butler]

That's why I was careful to say that man operates freely within his nature. A lost man's will is truly in bondage to his sinful nature, and his choices will fall within that nature.

That's why I also hold that when the Holy Spirit regenerates and gives us a new nature, then we operate freely within our new nature.

 

[Ruiz]

Here's the quote again:

Did I quote him incorrectly?

Tom,

This is taken slightly out of context. I would have you read the entire "Freedom of the Will." It is a glorious exposition of Reformed Theology. Instead of going against "Bondage of the Will", the "Freedom of the Will" continues along the same line of thought.

 

[Luke2427]

As a former Calvinist myself, I will gladly concede the point that Calvinists are just as evangelistic as non-Calvinists, but I must take issue with this statement.

In 2010:
PCA reported 1455 churches with 346 thousand members
SBC has over 37,000 churches with over 16 million members

That stat in itself should tell you something about the evangelistic growth over the life span of these two denominations.

You may have a point here- I am not certain yet. What I do now is question it until you can verify it.

WHAT should that tell us?

Does this take into consideration that the SBC was far more Calvinistic in her moorings than anything else?

PCA reported 7935 baptisms in 2010 (2621 Adult baptisms and 5314 infant) (about 5.5 per church)
SBC reported 332,321 baptisms in 2010 (about 9 per church)

This may support what you are saying, but once again, I am not yet convinced.

I question it because the SBC is on the decline by the count of multiplied tens o thousands every year for the past several years.

It seems to me to be the policy of MANY SBC churches to rush people into the baptistry waters to boast the numbers but in reality these people are not converted.
I base this on the fact that SBC has 16 million members but about 10 million of them do not show up for church every Sunday.

Also, this ought to be taken into consideration:

The actual decline in SBC membership may be more pronounced than these statistics indicate because Baptist churches, unlike United Methodist, Presbyterian and Evangelical Lutheran congregations, are not required to remove inactive members from their rolls.

At last count the Southern Baptist Convention employed 4,857 "home" missionaries (in the United States, Puerto Rico, Canada, Guam, American Samoa, and the Virgin Islands) and 4,137 foreign missionaries (in 130 nations), for a total of nearly nine thousand missionaries worldwide.

This is not as many per member as the number of missionaries which the PCA employs.

So, to claim the PCA is more evangelistic than the SBC is kind of like saying your local pee-wee football team likes playing football more than the Dallas Cowboys. I think we can both admit both teams like playing football and pointing out their game stats doesn't prove one of them likes it more.

This wrong. They are both playing in the same league (our culture) and the much smaller, younger team is advancing the ball an eighth as much as the MUCH MUCH bigger team.

What this means is that the much smaller team is being coached better and playing harder.

Yea, the much bigger team is making more ground- but it takes about 3200 members to send out out 1 foreign missionary in the SBC whereas it takes only 500 members to send out 1 foreign missionary in the PCA.

The SBC has more players because it is older and has had some great glory days in the past to bring it to where it is today (and probably because it used to play a lot more like the PCA plays today) but it is not playing as hard or as efficiently as the PCA.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Speaking of Baptism, I have a problem with a new Pastor. The guy wants me to be rebaptised....I think he needs a baptism quota to look good to his local church & RB Denom.

I think the ideas is absurd frankly. He was told I need instruction but this he never has the time to do however he can peddle Baptism (to me its cheap grace). Like he has baptised a known drug pusher who used it as a way to excuse his behavior (and this individual isnt a confirmed believer). I guess Im being a skeptic but I dont really trust this pastor. Im seriously considering leaving this church but the next closest church is another 25 miles away, more towards NYC

 

[Skandelon]

The stat is a little deceptive. The SBC is over 150 years old. The PCA began in December of 1973. As well, the SBC began with a large number of churches as a result of great revivals in the 18th and 19th Century, many of which began with Calvinistic origins. The PCA began with a 260 churches who left the PC-USA. So, I think they have done fairly well.

Please don't misunderstand my intent. I'm not attempting to deny how well the PCA has done, I'm only attempting to show how ridiculous the claim that it is "more evangelistic" than the SBC, when the facts just don't bare that out. My pointing out its size difference was in effort to show how they are apples and oranges (like the little league football team and Dallas Cowboys compare). Both groups clearly support and actively participate in evangelism despite their "success" rate and stats. (just as both teams like football)

As for Baptisms, that is distinctly a Baptist criterion. The fact is, most of the people SBCers baptized last year cannot be found.

Well, I could have used the Professions of Faith of the PCA but those numbers were actually lower than the number of baptisms and I was attempting to be a "fair" as possible in the comparison. Again, I don't believe the comparison of stats in this regard proves anything regarding either groups desire to reach the lost, but I think it disproves the contention that the PCA can be considered "more evangelistic" based on stats alone.

 

[Skandelon]

You may have a point here- ...

The SBC has more players because it is older and has had some great glory days in the past to bring it to where it is today (and probably because it used to play a lot more like the PCA plays today) but it is not playing as hard or as efficiently as the PCA.

Then your argument goes to prove effectiveness in evangelism not motivation or desire for evangelism. I was only taking issue with your claim that one group is "more evangelistic" because of their theological perspective than the other.

One could argue that the decline in Baptisms and membership of the SBC is directly related to the current resurgence of Calvinism within the SBC, which has some parallels. I don't believe that to be the case personally, but, then again, I'm not the one attempting to use subjective growth stats to prove evangelistic fervor based upon one's soteriology.

 

[Luke2427]

Then your argument goes to prove effectiveness in evangelism not motivation or desire for evangelism. I was only taking issue with your claim that one group is "more evangelistic" because of their theological perspective than the other.

Then we need to define our terms.

What do we mean by evangelistic.

If we mean fervor for the Great Commission then my stats and arguments hold.

If we mean sheer number of professions- then your stats prove your point.

I am saying that PCA has more evangelistic fervor than SBC at this point in history and the stats prove it.

One could argue that the decline in Baptisms and membership of the SBC is directly related to the current resurgence of Calvinism within the SBC, which has some parallels. I don't believe that to be the case personally, but, then again, I'm not the one attempting to use subjective growth stats to prove evangelistic fervor based upon one's soteriology.

No. One could not sensibly argue that- because there are actual SBC stats that show that Calvinist SBC churches are at least baptizing as many per capita as non-calvinistic SBC churches.

I don't provide the site here because I think most of us are familiar with it,; but I will if you request it.

 

[Jerome]

Luke please source your claim that PCA "has 1,400 missionaries on the field!!!".

Good point Jerome. I found that Mission to the World has 600 missionaries.

Even if it is 600 missionaries rather than the 1400 I posted, it is still more than SBC.

OK so it's not 1,400, but just 600.

Now let's examine the other part of your claim:

"1400 missionaries on the field!!!"


The SBC number is referring "field personnel".


Is the PCA number likewise referring to "field personnel"? Notice that nearly 1/4 are listed as "other" (working in everything from "administration" to "nurture")


Perhaps someone conversant in denominational bureaucratic lingo could clarify, but it appears to me that this PCA "missionaries" figure is encompassing all kinds of support staff, while the SBC figure isn't?