Calvinism needs to be Redefined

johnp. · Jun 12, 2005

Hello icthus.

John, if all the "elect" have already had their salvation in Jesus decided in eternity past, then what is the point in preaching to them...
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We call the elect that is what we do, ISA 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it. The gospel has to heard, that is the way God has set things up. Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Romans 10:17.
That's the way it is. He didn't want to just click His fingers but works through cause and effect. He will not convert a man that has not heard His word. That's the way it is.

...and the need for them to repent?
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Depends on what you mean by repentance. In this case it would mean to turn from towards God. Whoever believes that Jesus died for their sins they are saved. Whoever does not believe is not saved. And that depends on elect or not elect.

This doctrine is the biggest load of nonsense.
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But you can't say we have no faith man! We believe in Jesus Christ don't you know?

The elect have already been elected, so it matters not one bit whether they repent or not...
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Those He elected to salvation He calls and justifies and glorifies and they have no say but say yes only because it is God that is Sovereign and one can only do what the Sovereign decrees should be done. What is it you say then, that it does not matter what we do because He saves children does He not? What's a fetus do then? But you must deny the original sin.

...as they cannot be unelected, can they?
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It is impossible to be unelected if you are elected of course. Deselected you mean? Does God repent of His choices?

john.

icthus · Jun 12, 2005

John, so if it is not possible to become unelected, the the elect who have been elected before the foundation of the world, in eternity past, for the purpose of salvation in Jesus Christ, will so come to Jesus, and nothing can stop this since God has predetermined it. If this is the case, then I see no point in preaching the Gospel, as the elect will be saved anyway, since they are alreday elected. This is against what the Bible teaches, and has to be seen as heresy.

TCassidy · Jun 12, 2005

If this is the case, then I see no point in preaching the Gospel, as the elect will be saved anyway, since they are alreday elected. This is against what the Bible teaches, and has to be seen as heresy.
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There you have it folks! Arminians "see no point in preaching the Gospel." In other words, they see no point in obeying God. They see no point in obeying Christ. They see no point in obeying the Great Commission. They see no point in obeying the Great Commandment.

I get the point!

icthus · Jun 12, 2005

No Cassidy. My response it to the unbiblical doctrine that Calvinism teaches called "Predestination". This form of it is not found in Scripture.

johnp. · Jun 12, 2005

Hello icthus.

John, so if it is not possible to become unelected, the the elect who have been elected before the foundation of the world, in eternity past, for the purpose of salvation in Jesus Christ, will so come to Jesus, and nothing can stop this since God has predetermined it.
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That is so. He also predetermined all the events that lead up to it as well as all the steps we take forever.

If this is the case, then I see no point in preaching the Gospel, as the elect will be saved anyway, since they are alreday elected.
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That is true for individuals to think that but there are others in the Church who God gives obedience to and a 'love for' to as well as believe that if God wants to save by hearing the word He is able to raise up someone to do the job. He does not give all of us the same gifts. Don't knock those who say they do not need to, they are prevented by God because if God wants them out there that's where they would be because He would give them obedience. Personal experience. I'm with Jonah meself but I saw what happened to him. I thought that I might become a Christian if I moved to where no one knew me. HaHa! I was embarrassed! After He came and blew my mind I was no longer shy and searched out a Church with an outreach team. It wasn't me that changed me.

This is against what the Bible teaches, and has to be seen as heresy.
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Yes you are right it is seen as a heresy by the Roman Catholic Church if I'm not mistaken. It is seen as heresy by Arminians that believe they have to understand before they do as they are told!

I wear it as a badge anathema but it has never been declared a heresy by any Church council has it? Never. Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism has been though hasn't it? Everytime it attacks. Go with your company I'll go with mine.

john.

4His_glory · Jun 12, 2005

Originally posted by icthus:
John, so if it is not possible to become unelected, the the elect who have been elected before the foundation of the world, in eternity past, for the purpose of salvation in Jesus Christ, will so come to Jesus, and nothing can stop this since God has predetermined it. If this is the case, then I see no point in preaching the Gospel, as the elect will be saved anyway, since they are alreday elected. This is against what the Bible teaches, and has to be seen as heresy.
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God has not only chosen people for salvation, but them means that they will come to that salvation and that is the proclamation of the Gospel.

Wes Outwest · Jun 12, 2005

Originally posted by 4His_glory:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by icthus:
John, so if it is not possible to become unelected, the the elect who have been elected before the foundation of the world, in eternity past, for the purpose of salvation in Jesus Christ, will so come to Jesus, and nothing can stop this since God has predetermined it. If this is the case, then I see no point in preaching the Gospel, as the elect will be saved anyway, since they are alreday elected. This is against what the Bible teaches, and has to be seen as heresy.
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God has not only chosen people for salvation, but them means that they twill come to that salvation and that is the proclamation of the Gospel. </font>[/QUOTE]Does that include those not on "the elect" list that just happened to be strolling by when the apostles were gathered, and the Holy Spirit descended upon them as tongues of flame, who confessed Jesus on the spot? Oh, you say, they were elected to do so?

Acts 2:41 "That very day about three thousand were added to their number".
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There were three thousand elect that just happened to be in the hearing range of Peter's voice? Hmmm, let's see, if three thousand became believers that day, there must have been over 10,000 who were in the sound of Peter's voice. Even 3 out of 10 is a very high ratio of converts to Christianity out of an audience that was reputed to be hostile toward the Christ. That's what I'd call a dense-pack audience. Without modern PA loudspeakers, no man today can be heard by 10,000 people simultaneously. Why should we think that actually happened then in the place where the hostility against the Christ actually came to fruition?

Do I believe that 3000 came to believe in Jesus? Yes, I absolutely do! Were they all on "the elect" list? NO, I don't agree with that! They were ordinary men who heard the word of God given by, not only Peter but the rest of the Apostles as well, and they believed! If their belief grew into Faith in God, then they all received Salvation. If they believed that day, then fell away later, they did not receive God's salvation!

Bob Krajcik · Jun 12, 2005

Originally posted by icthus:
... If this is the case, then I see no point in preaching the Gospel, as the elect will be saved anyway, since they are alreday elected. This is against what the Bible teaches, and has to be seen as heresy.
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icthus,

You see no reason for preaching the gospel based on your false understanding of these matters. The Bible itself commands the gospel be preached, and is that not enough for you?

The Bible says preach. Have you not heard?

You are the one saying "no reason to preach" therefore, you brought heresy by saying you see no reason to preach he gospel.

Bob Krajcik · Jun 12, 2005

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
... Were they all on "the elect" list? NO, I don't agree with that! They were ordinary men who heard the word of God given by, not only Peter but the rest of the Apostles as well, and they believed! If their belief grew into Faith in God, then they all received Salvation. If they believed that day, then fell away later, they did not receive God's salvation!
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They believed, therefore they had faith. Faith is a gift of God (John 1:13; 6:28-29; Acts 13:48; 18:27; Rom 3:22; 9:16, 18, 22; 10:17; 12:3; Gal 2:16,20; 5:22; Eph 1:19; 2:8; Phil 1:29; Heb 12:2; Tit 3:5), fruit of the Spirit wrought in man by the operation of God. There is no faith, unless a man is first born again, of the Spirit of God. There is no fruit of the Spirit apart from the Spirit. (The interested reader should study the Scriptures referenced)

Salvation is of the Lord.

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

Wes Outwest · Jun 13, 2005

Bob K,

They believed, therefore they had faith.

Faith is a gift of God (John 1:13; 6:28-29; Acts 13:48; 18:27; Rom 3:22; 9:16, 18, 22; 10:17; 12:3; Gal 2:16,20; 5:22; Eph 1:19; 2:8; Phil 1:29; Heb 12:2; Tit 3:5 fruit of the Spirit wrought in man by the operation of God. There is no faith, unless a man is first born again, of the Spirit of God. There is no fruit of the Spirit apart from the Spirit. (The interested reader should study the Scriptures referenced)
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OK! I have read them in their context which follows, so what is your point? Prove it to us all with Scriptures IN CONTEXT!

John 1:11-13. He came to his own and his own people did not accept him. 12. But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believed in his name 13. who were born not from human stock or human desire or human will but from God himself.

John 6:27. Do not work for food that goes bad, but work for food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of man will give you, for on him the Father, God himself, has set his seal. 28. Then they said to him, "What must we do if we are to carry out God's work?" 29. Jesus gave them this answer, "This is carrying out God's work: you must believe in the one he has sent." 30. So they said, "What sign will you yourself do, the sight of which will make us believe in you? What work will you do? 31. Our fathers ate manna in the desert; as scripture says: He gave them bread from heaven to eat."

Acts 13:44-49. The next Sabbath almost the whole town assembled to hear the word of God. 45. When they saw the crowds, the Jews, filled with jealousy, used blasphemies to contradict everything Paul said. 46. Then Paul and Barnabas spoke out fearlessly. "We had to proclaim the word of God to you first, but since you have rejected it, since you do not think yourselves worthy of eternal life, here and now we turn to the gentiles. 47. For this is what the Lord commanded us to do when he said: I have made you a light to the nations, so that my salvation may reach the remotest parts of the earth." 48. It made the gentiles very happy to hear this and they gave thanks to the Lord for his message; all who were destined for eternal life became believers. 49. Thus the word of the Lord spread through the whole countryside.

Acts 18:24. An Alexandrian Jew named Apollos now arrived in Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, with a sound knowledge of the scriptures, and yet, 25. though he had been given instruction in the Way of the Lord and preached with great spiritual fervour and was accurate in all the details he taught about Jesus, he had experienced only the baptism of John. 26. He began to teach fearlessly in the synagogue and, when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they attached themselves to him and gave him more detailed instruction about the Way. 27. When Apollos thought of crossing over to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote asking the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived there he was able by God's grace to help the believers considerably 28. by the energetic way he refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating from the scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Romans 3:21. God's saving justice was witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, but now it has been revealed altogether apart from law: 22. God's saving justice given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. 23. No distinction is made: all have sinned and lack God's glory, 24. and all are justified by the free gift of his grace through being set free in Christ Jesus. 25. God appointed him as a sacrifice for reconciliation, through faith, by the shedding of his blood, and so showed his justness; first for the past, when sins went unpunished because he held his hand; 26. and now again for the present age, to show how he is just and justifies everyone who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 9:14-24. What should we say, then? That God is unjust? Out of the question! 15. For speaking to Moses, he said: I am gracious to those to whom I am gracious and I take pity on those on whom I take pity. 16. So it is not a matter of what any person wants or what any person does, but only of God having mercy. 17. Scripture says to Pharaoh: I raised you up for this reason, to display my power in you and to have my name talked of throughout the world. 18. In other words, if God wants to show mercy on someone, he does so, and if he wants to harden someone's heart, he does so. 19. Then you will ask me, "How then can he ever blame anyone, since no one can oppose his will?" 20. But you, who do you think you, a human being, are, to answer back to God? Something that was made, can it say to its maker: why did you make me this shape? 21. A potter surely has the right over his clay to make out of the same lump either a pot for special use or one for ordinary use. 22. But suppose that God, although all the time he wanted to reveal his retribution and demonstrate his power, has with great patience gone on putting up with those who are the instruments of his retribution and designed to be destroyed; 23. so that he may make known the glorious riches ready for the people who are the instruments of his faithful love and were long ago prepared for that glory. 24. We are that people, called by him not only out of the Jews but out of the gentiles too.

Romans 10:14. How then are they to call on him if they have not come to believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard of him? And how will they hear of him unless there is a preacher for them? 15. And how will there be preachers if they are not sent? As scripture says: How beautiful are the feet of the messenger of good news. 16. But in fact they have not all responded to the good news. As Isaiah says: Lord, who has given credence to what they have heard from us? 17. But it is in that way faith comes, from hearing, and that means hearing the word of Christ. 18. Well then, I say, is it possible that they have not heard? Indeed they have: in the entire earth their voice stands out, their message reaches the whole world. 19. Well, another question, then: is it possible that Israel did not understand? In the first place Moses said: I shall rouse you to jealousy with a non-people, I shall exasperate you with a stupid nation. 20. And Isaiah is even bold enough to say: I have let myself be found by those who did not seek me; I have let myself be seen by those who did not consult me; 21. and referring to Israel, he says: All day long I have been stretching out my hands to a disobedient and rebellious people.

Romans 12:3. And through the grace that I have been given, I say this to every one of you: never pride yourself on being better than you really are, but think of yourself dispassionately, recognising that God has given to each one his measure of faith. 4. Just as each of us has various parts in one body, and the parts do not all have the same function: 5. in the same way, all of us, though there are so many of us, make up one body in Christ, and as different parts we are all joined to one another. 6. Then since the gifts that we have differ according to the grace that was given to each of us: if it is a gift of prophecy, we should prophesy as much as our faith tells us; 7. if it is a gift of practical service, let us devote ourselves to serving; if it is teaching, to teaching; 8. if it is encouraging, to encouraging. When you give, you should give generously from the heart; if you are put in charge, you must be conscientious; if you do works of mercy, let it be because you enjoy doing them. 9. Let love be without any pretence. Avoid what is evil; stick to what is good. 10. In brotherly love let your feelings of deep affection for one another come to expression and regard others as more important than yourself. 11. In the service of the Lord, work not halfheartedly but with conscientiousness and an eager spirit. 12. Be joyful in hope, persevere in hardship; keep praying regularly; 13. share with any of God's holy people who are in need; look for opportunities to be hospitable.

Gal 2:15. We who were born Jews and not gentile sinners 16. have nevertheless learnt that someone is reckoned as upright not by practising the Law but by faith in Jesus Christ; and we too came to believe in Christ Jesus so as to be reckoned as upright by faith in Christ and not by practising the Law: since no human being can be found upright by keeping the Law. 17. Now if we too are found to be sinners on the grounds that we seek our justification in Christ, it would surely follow that Christ was at the service of sin. Out of the question! 18. If I now rebuild everything I once demolished, I prove that I was wrong before. 19. In fact, through the Law I am dead to the Law so that I can be alive to God. I have been crucified with Christ 20. and yet I am alive; yet it is no longer I, but Christ living in me. The life that I am now living, subject to the limitation of human nature, I am living in faith, faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me. 21. I am not setting aside God's grace as of no value; it is merely that if saving justice comes through the Law, Christ died needlessly.

Gal 5:16. Instead, I tell you, be guided by the Spirit, and you will no longer yield to self-indulgence. 17. The desires of self-indulgence are always in opposition to the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are in opposition to self-indulgence: they are opposites, one against the other; that is how you are prevented from doing the things that you want to. 18. But when you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19. When self-indulgence is at work the results are obvious: sexual vice, impurity, and sensuality, 20. the worship of false gods and sorcery; antagonisms and rivalry, jealousy, bad temper and quarrels, disagreements, 21. factions and malice, drunkenness, orgies and all such things. And about these, I tell you now as I have told you in the past, that people who behave in these ways will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22. On the other hand the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, trustfulness, 23. gentleness and self-control; no law can touch such things as these. 24. All who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified self with all its passions and its desires.

25. Since we are living by the Spirit, let our behaviour be guided by the Spirit 26. and let us not be conceited or provocative and envious of one another.

Eph 1:15. That is why I, having once heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus, and your love for all God's holy people, 16. have never failed to thank God for you and to remember you in my prayers. 17. May the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, give you a spirit of wisdom and perception of what is revealed, to bring you to full knowledge of him. 18. May he enlighten the eyes of your mind so that you can see what hope his call holds for you, how rich is the glory of the heritage he offers among his holy people, 19. and how extraordinarily great is the power that he has exercised for us believers; this accords with the strength of his power 20. at work in Christ, the power which he exercised in raising him from the dead and enthroning him at his right hand, in heaven, 21. far above every principality, ruling force, power or sovereignty, or any other name that can be named, not only in this age but also in the age to come. 22. He has put all things under his feet, and made him, as he is above all things, the head of the Church; 23. which is his Body, the fullness of him who is filled, all in all.

Eph 2:7. This was to show for all ages to come, through his goodness towards us in Christ Jesus, how extraordinarily rich he is in grace. 8. Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God; 9. not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit. 10. We are God's work of art, created in Christ Jesus for the good works which God has already designated to make up our way of life. Phil 1:27. But you must always behave in a way that is worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come to you and see for myself or whether I only hear all about you from a distance, I shall find that you are standing firm and united in spirit, battling, as a team with a single aim, for the faith of the gospel, 28. undismayed by any of your opponents. This will be a clear sign, for them that they are to be lost, and for you that you are to be saved. 29. This comes from God, for you have been granted the privilege for Christ's sake not only of believing in him but of suffering for him as well; 30. you are fighting the same battle which you saw me fighting for him and which you hear I am fighting still.

Heb 2:1. With so many witnesses in a great cloud all around us, we too, then, should throw off everything that weighs us down and the sin that clings so closely, and with perseverance keep running in the race which lies ahead of us. 2. Let us keep our eyes fixed on Jesus, who leads us in our faith and brings it to perfection: for the sake of the joy which lay ahead of him, he endured the cross, disregarding the shame of it, and has taken his seat at the right of God's throne. 3. Think of the way he persevered against such opposition from sinners and then you will not lose heart and come to grief. 4. In the fight against sin, you have not yet had to keep fighting to the point of bloodshed.

Titus 3:4. But when the kindness and love of God our Saviour for humanity were revealed, 5. it was not because of any upright actions we had done ourselves; it was for no reason except his own faithful love that he saved us, by means of the cleansing water of rebirth and renewal in the Holy Spirit 6. which he has so generously poured over us through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7. so that, justified by his grace, we should become heirs in hope of eternal life. 8. This is doctrine that you can rely on.
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icthus · Jun 13, 2005

Bob, you say:

"icthus,

You see no reason for preaching the gospel based on your false understanding of these matters. The Bible itself commands the gospel be preached, and is that not enough for you?

The Bible says preach. Have you not heard?

You are the one saying "no reason to preach" therefore, you brought heresy by saying you see no reason to preach he gospel. "

I most certainly see every reason for the Gospel to be preached, as there are very many souls that are in great need to be saved!

My argument is against the Calvinistic misunderstanding on "Predestination", where they falsly assume, that the "destiny" of some, namely "the elect", as already been determined. This was supposidly done in eternity past. If this is true, and only the elect will ever be saved, the it is pointless to preach the Gospel, since the elect will be saved anyway. This also follows from the argeument, that, if there are elect persons in some remote part of the world, where they never hear the Gospel, and then were to die, they will be saved. Or, will these "elect" not be saved, since they did not believe? If this is the case, the what was their "election" before the foundation of the world for? It is my contention. That, since Scripture plainly commands that we share the Gospel with everyone without exception. That this is exactly what God intenede, that everyone without exception, can be saved, because Christ had made provision in His Atonement for these. Not as the Calvinist says, that He only made provision for the elect.

OCC · Jun 14, 2005

Calvinism redefined: twisted Scripture and faulty logic. An evil "god" who needs His little Calvinists to make excuses for Him just like all Calvinists do.

Example of an excuse: God is sovereign and man cannot thwart His plan...God predetermines all things...but He's not responsible for man's sin. Yeah...uh huh.

rc · Jun 14, 2005

KJ... it's o.k. I understand... No good theology schools in Canada..... it's called concurrence....Those aren't excuses either, it's called proper, orthodox theology. You want free will go ahead ... join the heretics... Long live Dort !

johnp. · Jun 14, 2005

Hello Sire.

Why King James King James? Is that really your name? My wife knew a Tressa Green at her school.

Some parents!

john

OCC · Jun 14, 2005

LOL..you call me a heretic yet you follow a twisted distortion of God. One more close to the devil than Christ.

I don't appreciate your condescension nor your uninformed OPINION of theology schools in Canada. You can keep your theology schools and "Dort" and I will keep the Bible and the true Christ...thank you very much. Oh by the way...your "unloving" but typical Calvinist comment shows the lack of godly fruit resulting from Calvinism. But it's ok...I understand...you can't help it. God pre-ordained you to be that way.

Oh...and yes...they are excuses.

OCC · Jun 14, 2005

LOL John...no that's not my name. I just think it sounds cool.

johnp. · Jun 14, 2005

Hello icthus.

My argument is against the Calvinistic misunderstanding on "Predestination", where they falsly assume, that the "destiny" of some, namely "the elect", as already been determined.
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What? We don't believe that 'predestination' mean to be predestined do we? How stupid of us I can see where we err now. Thanks man for letting us know that 'predestination' does not mean to predestine and for showing us how dark it is in your part of London.

He predestined us now should read He did not predestine us.

john.

rc · Jun 15, 2005

I'm not calling you a herertic, just all the chruch fathers. Men who knew the Bible alot better than you or I.

God gave us great teachers to learn from and to not forget our past. Righteousness does not live in a land of forgetfulness, so don't forget Dort. Or go back to the free will, man centered, Roman Catholic church who loves it's free-will, secular humanistic philosophy who's upsidedown theology started the reformation in the first place. Long live Dort! Long live the Solae !

OCC · Jun 18, 2005

So you expect me to trust the words of John Calvin, a murderer? not gonna happen. And the Catholic church called us all heretics, what's your point? I don't care what some past teacher has to call me, I care what Christ calls me. Now who's beliefs are founded on man? Huh?

You better get your history right if you think "free will" started the Reformation. You can keep Dort! I'll keep the Bible. It's amazing the caustic and harsh words you have to describe someone who just believes that Jesus loves them and wills that all would be saved. You make God an evil tyrant. and you do it of your own "free will".

rc · Jun 18, 2005

Boy are you confused. "Free Will" in the Catholic Church, "Yes".

You keep on saying God WILLS all would be saved. Do you mean God's Will, which He does perfectly, and completely is being thwarted? I think you are taking that verse out of context. ...Well, I know you are taking it out of context. And I'm not trusting in the words of Calvin either. If you knew anything about the subject, he didn't write that much on the subject anyhow.

What do you think Dort was? A bunch of guys looking at the teachings of Calvin and judging according to what he wrote on the matter? Try over 300 theologians for over 3 months slaving at the scriptures to search for truth. And truth tends to unify. Hence, they condemned the "free willers" to heresy and to stop them from preaching at the pulpits, because it was "historically" and "theologically" heretical.

You just trust your Bible huh? How bout where it says God gifted and gave teachers? And to through out the dividers (heretics, false teachers)? Oh yeah, you and your Bible are above them. Remember this verse also, "There's a way that SEEMS right onto a man, and the ends thereof are death".

Don't trust those guys huh? Are you reading the Apocrypha? Or the gospel of Thomas? Bartholomew? Or the other 2 thousand other letters that were rejected for canonization by the same MEN you claim you will not trust?

Funny how you won't trust them on a doctrine in the Bible, but you will trust them on WHAT IS the Bible! Ha !

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