I don't know. Why does God do anything? He is God. He gets to do what He wants to do. But remember, when he elects them, they aren't dead.
Again, I have no idea what you are asking for.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Calvinism needs to be Redefined
- Thread starter icthus
- Start date
As Romans 5 teaches, he sinned in Adam. Psalm 51 teaches that sin begins at conception. We don't have to like it. But it is what God said. Fortunately, it is the only way in which there can be salvation. Remember, Romand 5:12-19 teaches that we become righteous in the same way that we become sinners. If you become a sinner by your act of sin, you have eto become righteous by your own act of righteousness. Of course, that is impossible. But since Adam's sin was imputed to us, making us sinners, Christ's righteousness can be imputed to us, making us righteous.
Having a deficient view of sin and atonement has led you to a faulty view of this topic.
Larry Larry How can we get Adam's sin - if we cant even get our own father's?
If one can get one - one can get the other - they follow each other since they are equivalent!
But the Bible clearly teaches I am not responsible for the sins of my father or forefathers!
His sins will affect me - but I will not be held guilty of them
If one can get one - one can get the other - they follow each other since they are equivalent!
But the Bible clearly teaches I am not responsible for the sins of my father or forefathers!
His sins will affect me - but I will not be held guilty of them
PreachTREE
New Member
IMO we are just called/named the elect and not simply elected. We are "called" the elect in the sense that God knows who will be saved (through His foreknowledge). The "elect" is simply the conclusion of a story and not the writing of it. When we get saved we are part of the group that God has forseen and not saved because we were preselected. Since God knows who will be saved, Scripture refers to us as the elect. Am i way off here?
Hello PreachTREE nice to meet you.
You leave yourself open to this attack from Calvinists:
What's the problem you have with the word 'elect' that you change it's meaning to 'not elect'? I'm a Calvinist by the way.
I know the word 'elect' means to select out of, to chose one over another.
elect 1 : chosen especially by preference or for excellence : carefully selected : EXCLUSIVE, CHOICE <considered themselves a very elect group>
2 a : chosen for office or position but not yet installed -- usually used after the noun <president-elect> <delegate-elect> b : chosen for marriage at some future time to a specified person <bride-elect>
3 : chosen as an object of divine mercy of favor : set apart for eternal life -- used in theology <to elect souls a Redeemer comes down who reveals the secret knowledge -- W.F.Howard>
"elect." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (11 Jun. 2005).
john.
Yes, way off.
You leave yourself open to this attack from Calvinists:What's the problem you have with the word 'elect' that you change it's meaning to 'not elect'? I'm a Calvinist by the way.
I know the word 'elect' means to select out of, to chose one over another.
elect 1 : chosen especially by preference or for excellence : carefully selected : EXCLUSIVE, CHOICE <considered themselves a very elect group>
2 a : chosen for office or position but not yet installed -- usually used after the noun <president-elect> <delegate-elect> b : chosen for marriage at some future time to a specified person <bride-elect>
3 : chosen as an object of divine mercy of favor : set apart for eternal life -- used in theology <to elect souls a Redeemer comes down who reveals the secret knowledge -- W.F.Howard>
"elect." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (11 Jun. 2005).
john.
Yes, way off.
You leave yourself open to this attack from Calvinists:What's the problem you have with the word 'elect' that you change it's meaning to 'not elect'? I'm a Calvinist by the way.
I know the word 'elect' means to select out of, to chose one over another.
elect 1 : chosen especially by preference or for excellence : carefully selected : EXCLUSIVE, CHOICE <considered themselves a very elect group>
2 a : chosen for office or position but not yet installed -- usually used after the noun <president-elect> <delegate-elect> b : chosen for marriage at some future time to a specified person <bride-elect>
3 : chosen as an object of divine mercy of favor : set apart for eternal life -- used in theology <to elect souls a Redeemer comes down who reveals the secret knowledge -- W.F.Howard>
"elect." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (11 Jun. 2005).
john. </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks John for the education, we all needed that
What you have just proved here, that Calvinism teaches elitism, and makes God a "respecter of persons", something that the Bible very clearly says that He is not.
Right, John, let me ask you this, since I get no sense from Larry, who just mumbles on about something that even he does not understand. Why did God choose you above the millions who will not make it to heaven? Lets not have the Calvinistic line, "for His glory". How does choosing you and not the millions who will go to hell, be for the glory of God? I am aware of the Calvinistic heresy, that God "ordains all things for His glory", including the fall of man. But, I want to deal with the Bible, and not some heretical nonsense. Lets have some solid Scriptures to back up what you say.
Hello icthus.
What part of 'elect' do you have a problem with then? HaHa! You change the meaning of an English word to change the meaning of scripture.
He chose me in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. Ephesians 1:4.
That's what He did.
He predestined me to be adopted as his son through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will Ephesians 1:5
Because that was His will.
that he lavished on me with all wisdom and understanding. Ephesians 1:8
And He knew what He was doing.
And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure
And then He told me what He had done for me. He told me what He had done for me because He wanted to treat me as His patner instead of His enemy because He wanted because He decided to. His will for me is for good not bad because He so chose to treat me like that and I have no complaints. He can do as He pleases as far as I'm concerned. That the doctrine stinks to many is His problem not mine.
EPH 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
RO 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Solid enough?
Answer that question please. Has God the right to create some just to torture and burn in Hell forever? Yes or no?
john.
The question would have sufficed without the slur to one you should show respect to regardless of your comprehension. If you have difficulty understanding another person ask for clarification.
That's why I said it.
What part of 'elect' do you have a problem with then? HaHa! You change the meaning of an English word to change the meaning of scripture.He chose me for no reason in me and He has shown me what I am and I conclude from the writings and my knowledge of myself that there is no reason in me. I can say with the bloke in Romans nine, "Then why does God not blame me." And I will get the same reply, "Because." That is the answer we get from God and that is the only answer He gives us. And one more thing. I advise not going beyond what is written here as you are trespassing on the will of God.
What do you want to hear then a chorus of Knees up Mother Brown or something. Why ask a Calvinist to reply without a Calvinist point of view? I think though 'for His glory' is not the right response to your question because He would get that if He left me out and chose another wouldn't He? Everything that happens is for His glory isn't it? Of course it is.
I can say this:
He chose me in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. Ephesians 1:4.
That's what He did.
He predestined me to be adopted as his son through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will Ephesians 1:5
Because that was His will.
that he lavished on me with all wisdom and understanding. Ephesians 1:8
And He knew what He was doing.
And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure
And then He told me what He had done for me. He told me what He had done for me because He wanted to treat me as His patner instead of His enemy because He wanted because He decided to. His will for me is for good not bad because He so chose to treat me like that and I have no complaints. He can do as He pleases as far as I'm concerned. That the doctrine stinks to many is His problem not mine.
I'm am blessed to be part of the Calvinist heresy. I am sold out to the Sovereignty of God and as such He pushed Adam. He decrees all things and is the first cause of all things. He is awesome in His Sovereignty and a joke without it. Is that what you want to hear?
Why you talking to Calvinists then? Why ask a Calvinist to reply without a Calvinist point of view? Odd.
Oki doki.
EPH 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
RO 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Solid enough?
We have not been told why we are saved in particular as we have not been told why others are not saved but in God's sight we are all 'one lump'. Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Answer that question please. Has God the right to create some just to torture and burn in Hell forever? Yes or no?
john.
Read Romans 5. We get it through imputation. Read my comments about Romans 5 and then study it out.
Incorrect. Adam sinned as the federal head; Christ was righteous as hte federal head. Again, that is the point of Roman 5.
We become righteous in the same way we become sinful. If you become sinful by your own acts of sin, then you must become righteous by your own acts of righteousness. That is impossible. But sin God imputes Adam's sin to us, he can impute Christ's righteousness to us so that it might be of grace.
Yes, I think you are pretty far off here. To be "called the elect" without being elected makes no sense. Why would you call someone something they are not? In Scripture, election is not "the conclusion of the story" but rather the beginning as EPh 1:4 and 2 Thes 2:13 tell us. Secondly, "elect" is never used in Scripture to describe the result of belief, or the result of God's knowledge about future belief. So we can't say that Since God knows who will be saved, Scripture refers to us as the elect.
What does "respecter of persons" mean? If God chooses us because of nothing in us that differentiates us from one another, how can taht be respecting persons? I have pointed out many times that you have it exactly backwards. It is your view that makes God a resspecter of persons, becuase he chooses them based on something in them.
I have not mumbled a bit. I have demonstrated fairly clear understanding of these issues. If you think otherwise, then demonstrate it. Otherwise, leave the personal stuff out of it.
Why would you leave God's answer out? Is that not good enough for you?
1 Cor 1:18ff. also answer this question by telling us that God didn't pick the smart, intelligent, wellbred people, but rather the poor, stupid ones. That was the make the wisdom of the world foolish and to demonstrate his own glory.
You see, the Bible gives answers. You just don't like them because it refutes your own position.
No you don't. You have yet to deal with the passages that say God ordained sin. As Russell pointed out, you just ignore them (last I checked). You will not deal with the passages I put forth. You won't put any of your own forth. If you want to deal with the Bible, then deal with it. Your posts have very little of the Bible in them.
Cassidy, why don't you Calvinists who think they have all the answers, show from Scripture where God "ordains sin"? I see it mentioned by Larry as being Biblical, but has failed to produce even one text to back this heresy up. Maybe you guys don't really understand the English language, and the meaning of the word "ordains" seems to cause a mental block, as you keep on saying that God can "ordain" that we sin, and yet hold us responsible for doing what He ordained in the first place. Talking about nonsense, I think that Calvinism has its roots on in the Bible, but the mind os some who think without the Holy Spirit.
Icthus, you were given passages that you have refused to address. Why do you say we haven't produced "even one text"? That is dishonest. You won't deal with the texts we do put forth.
"It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument." - William Gibbs McAdoo, American government official (1863-1941). </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, I know. When you guys are challenged about your nonsense, and you really don't have any Scripture to suport your views, you avoid the facts and resort to ingnorant remerks. I thought you were some college professor? Is it no wonder the Church and Christianity is in such a mess in the world today, as you guys are all so full of yourselves!
You have been given several passages many times and refused to answer. Why not answer those passages? You want to respond with personal perjoratives rather than discuss issues. It is shameful. Discuss the issues or don't post.
Wes Outwest
New Member
As Romans 5 teaches, he sinned in Adam. Psalm 51 teaches that sin begins at conception. We don't have to like it. But it is what God said. Fortunately, it is the only way in which there can be salvation. Remember, Romand 5:12-19 teaches that we become righteous in the same way that we become sinners. If you become a sinner by your act of sin, you have eto become righteous by your own act of righteousness. Of course, that is impossible. But since Adam's sin was imputed to us, making us sinners, Christ's righteousness can be imputed to us, making us righteous.
Having a deficient view of sin and atonement has led you to a faulty view of this topic. </font>[/QUOTE]Having completely overlooked the facts of atonement you arrive at false conclusions about sin. Sin was atoned 2000 years ago, infants have no cognazance of sin, nor guilt of having sinned, therefore they are innocent of sinning and do not deserve punishment. Your understanding is faulty at best.
You have been given several passages many times and refused to answer. Why not answer those passages? You want to respond with personal perjoratives rather than discuss issues. It is shameful. Discuss the issues or don't post. </font>[/QUOTE]No Larry, you are the one who needs to discuss the issues, and not hide behind some non-Biblical theological statements as found in the WCF. I have asked you before, where is one text that shows God ordaining sin? Either produce the evidence, or be man enough to admit that what you believe is not in the Bible. What will it be?
As we have shown from Scripture, your view of the atonement is unbiblical. There is absolutely no legitimate dispute about that.
Irrelevant ...
They are guilty in Adam, as the Bible teaches. I have demonstrated this from Scritpure, but you won't deal with it.
False statement.
Another false statement. I hvae shown you in Scripture where the understand this issue. You have not even addressed that. It is obvious why ... You have no answer. You can't deal with Scripture, as you have shown before.