Calvinism or Arminianism

[webdog]

Scuze me for butting in, but I can testify that I for one DID NOT get saved reading the bible. I got saved by the preaching of the gospel.

How did the Ethiopian get saved?
Phillip: Do you understand what you're reading?
EU: How can I, except some man should guide me?

So Phillip took the passage (Isaiah 53) and preached unto him Jesus.

How was the Gospel presented to you? Was it done the calvinist way ("some here may be the elect, and if so, God loves you and died for you...")...or non calvinist way ("For God so loved the world...")?

Can someone come to Christ reading the Bible? Are the words in the Bible truth to the non elect?

 

[jne1611]

In the correct knowledge of the Word, no.

Question: Were you saved as a calvinist, meaning, did someone share the Gospel with you stating you might be one of the "elect"? Did you come to this doctrine from reading the Bible FIRST...or reading the works of men first, then saying "...oh yeah, I see where that says..."?

I came to belief by the gospel being preached. After that I was taught by the standard of freewill. I came to believe as I do by studying the Bible. No Calvinist influenced me. I was a pastor long before I came to believe as I do. I started preaching verse by verse and came head on with the doctrine and was faced with the decision to either preach the whole of Scripture or stick with preaching what is commonly acceptable namely freewill.
Do you go to church?

 

[J.D.]

by "form", calvinists substitute the meaning "create". I do not know of any potter who puts together the minerals and water that it takes to create what we call clay. The clay is already in existence. This is why it's dangerous to create a theological opinion from a simile.

Is this an answere to my question? Don't tell me what I think "form" means. I'm asking you, in your opinion and understanding of the passage, was the clay formed, or, influenced?

 

[jne1611]

by "form", calvinists substitute the meaning "create". I do not know of any potter who puts together the minerals and water that it takes to create what we call clay. The clay is already in existence. This is why it's dangerous to create a theological opinion from a simile.

Do you know of any potter who says "I dare not make an impression on this clay! That would violate its freewill to become what it wills to be!"

 

[webdog]

Is this an answere to my question? Don't tell me what I think "form" means. I'm asking you, in your opinion and understanding of the passage, was the clay formed, or, influenced?

As the great theologian blammo once said..."yes".

 

[webdog]

Do you know of any potter who says "I dare not make an impression on this clay! That would violate its freewill to become what it wills to be!"

I don't know what this has to do with my post. Did the potter, prior to stating what you said, create the clay from scratch? The argument seems to be that God "creates" clay for the purpose of forming it...then destroying it. I would like to hear from one potter out there that does this. This is foolishness.

 

[J.D.]

How was the Gospel presented to you? Was it done the calvinist way ("some here may be the elect, and if so, God loves you and died for you...")...or non calvinist way ("For God so loved the world...")?

Can someone come to Christ reading the Bible? Are the words in the Bible truth to the non elect?

I don't know how the gospel was presented as you imply it, but I do remember being convinced that I was a sinner in need of saving, and I desparately turned to Christ and repented and believed in Him.

It happened for me just like it did for the Thesselonians:

"Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost"

 

[jne1611]

I don't know what this has to do with my post. Did the potter, prior to stating what you said, create the clay from scratch? The argument seems to be that God "creates" clay for the purpose of forming it...then destroying it. I would like to hear from one potter out there that does this. This is foolishness.

Look at the Scripture. The argument is that God had a purpose for both vessels of wrath & vessels of mercy! What may be foolish to you is Gods purpose. The lump is Jew and Gentile! All sinners! God chose to save some not all! Both are serving in God's ultimate purpose! Can't you see this?

 

[webdog]

I started preaching verse by verse and came head on with the doctrine and was faced with the decision to either preach the whole of Scripture or stick with preaching what is commonly acceptable namely freewill.

Be honest...do you preach that God loves some, hates others...died for some, left the rest for destruction...created some for the purpose of saving them, and the rest for destruction? If you believe this is "truth", and you claim to preach the whole of Scripture, and your interpretation of Scripture claims this, are you honest about it? I have yet to hear a calvinist preacher preach this way. Most sound like non calvinists, and the excuse I hear them using is "I don't know who the elect are, so I preach like everyone is". This is the biggest cop out exuse out there. Truth is truth. If you don't believe God died for all, and you believe calvinism is truth...preach what you feel to be truth. I'm sick of calvinist preachers preaching the "arminian" Gospel.

 

[J.D.]

As the great theologian blammo once said..."yes".

Thank you. Now if I can get BroBob to admit this, I can retire from this forum, having at last won the dabate!

(it's a joke, come on, laugh)

 

[J.D.]

Look at the Scripture. The argument is that God had a purpose for both vessels of wrath & vessels of mercy! What may be foolish to you is Gods purpose. The lump is Jew and Gentile! All sinners! God chose to save some not all! Both are serving in God's ultimate purpose! Can't you see this?

Finally, we have some actual exposition of the passage going on!

 

[webdog]

Look at the Scripture. The argument is that God had a purpose for both vessels of wrath & vessels of mercy! What may be foolish to you is Gods purpose. The lump is Jew and Gentile! All sinners! God chose to save some not all! Both are serving in God's ultimate purpose! Can't you see this?

Let's look at Scripture. Paul (being a pharisee) had vast knowledge of the OT, no? How does this play into what he says in Romans? Can't you see the context?
Jer 18:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD:
Jer 18:2 "Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will let you hear my words."
Jer 18:3 So I went down to the potter's house, and there he was working at his wheel.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me:
Jer 18:6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the LORD. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.
Jer 18:7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it,
Jer 18:8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it.
Jer 18:9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it,
Jer 18:10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.
Jer 18:11 Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: 'Thus says the LORD, behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds.'
Jer 18:12 "But they say, 'That is in vain! We will follow our own plans, and will every one act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.'
Jer 18:13 "Therefore thus says the LORD: Ask among the nations, Who has heard the like of this? The virgin Israel has done a very horrible thing.
Jer 18:14 Does the snow of Lebanon leave the crags of Sirion? Do the mountain waters run dry, the cold flowing streams?
Jer 18:15 But my people have forgotten me; they make offerings to false gods; they made them stumble in their ways, in the ancient roads, and to walk into side roads, not the highway,
Jer 18:16 making their land a horror, a thing to be hissed at forever. Everyone who passes by it is horrified and shakes his head.
Jer 18:17 Like the east wind I will scatter them before the enemy. I will show them my back, not my face, in the day of their calamity."
Jer 18:18 Then they said, "Come, let us make plots against Jeremiah, for the law shall not perish from the priest, nor counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophet. Come, let us strike him with the tongue, and let us not pay attention to any of his words."
Jer 18:19 Hear me, O LORD, and listen to the voice of my adversaries.
Jer 18:20 Should good be repaid with evil? Yet they have dug a pit for my life. Remember how I stood before you to speak good for them, to turn away your wrath from them.
Jer 18:21 Therefore deliver up their children to famine; give them over to the power of the sword; let their wives become childless and widowed. May their men meet death by pestilence, their youths be struck down by the sword in battle.
Jer 18:22 May a cry be heard from their houses, when you bring the plunderer suddenly upon them! For they have dug a pit to take me and laid snares for my feet.
Jer 18:23 Yet you, O LORD, know all their plotting to kill me. Forgive not their iniquity, nor blot out their sin from your sight. Let them be overthrown before you; deal with them in the time of your anger.

 

[Blammo]

Can you help me see the connection you're making? What does Israel's lack of faith have to do with the thing formed protesting and questioning the person who formed it?

And what is the implied answer to the question "Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it "Why have you made me like this?".

As I stated above, I ain't so smart, but I will try to answer your question.

If I look at Romans 9 by itself, I would probably conclude the same thing you do about it. However, I see calvinists trying to make the rest of scripture agree with Romans 9, instead of making Romans 9 agree with the rest of scripture. I confess, J.D., I don't have a perfect understanding of Romans 9. However, I do believe it is saying:

1) Paul desires the salvation of all of Isreal. (Is he more merciful than God?)
2) The Israelites are the people through which God chose to deliver to mankind, the law, the covenants, the gospel...etc.
3) However, they are sinners in need of a saviour, just like the Gentiles.
4) Their pride makes this hard to accept, "we believe we're good, and if we're bad, it's your fault"
5) God, as creator, has the right to set the conditions for all things.

 

[J.D.]

Let's look at Scripture. Paul (being a pharisee) had vast knowledge of the OT, no? How does this play into what he says in Romans? Can't you see the context?
Jer 18:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD:
Jer 18:2 "Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will let you hear my words."
Jer 18:3 So I went down to the potter's house, and there he was working at his wheel.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me:
Jer 18:6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the LORD. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.
Jer 18:7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it,
Jer 18:8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it.
Jer 18:9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it,
Jer 18:10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.
Jer 18:11 Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: 'Thus says the LORD, behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds.'
Jer 18:12 "But they say, 'That is in vain! We will follow our own plans, and will every one act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.'
Jer 18:13 "Therefore thus says the LORD: Ask among the nations, Who has heard the like of this? The virgin Israel has done a very horrible thing.
Jer 18:14 Does the snow of Lebanon leave the crags of Sirion? Do the mountain waters run dry, the cold flowing streams?
Jer 18:15 But my people have forgotten me; they make offerings to false gods; they made them stumble in their ways, in the ancient roads, and to walk into side roads, not the highway,
Jer 18:16 making their land a horror, a thing to be hissed at forever. Everyone who passes by it is horrified and shakes his head.
Jer 18:17 Like the east wind I will scatter them before the enemy. I will show them my back, not my face, in the day of their calamity."
Jer 18:18 Then they said, "Come, let us make plots against Jeremiah, for the law shall not perish from the priest, nor counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophet. Come, let us strike him with the tongue, and let us not pay attention to any of his words."
Jer 18:19 Hear me, O LORD, and listen to the voice of my adversaries.
Jer 18:20 Should good be repaid with evil? Yet they have dug a pit for my life. Remember how I stood before you to speak good for them, to turn away your wrath from them.
Jer 18:21 Therefore deliver up their children to famine; give them over to the power of the sword; let their wives become childless and widowed. May their men meet death by pestilence, their youths be struck down by the sword in battle.
Jer 18:22 May a cry be heard from their houses, when you bring the plunderer suddenly upon them! For they have dug a pit to take me and laid snares for my feet.
Jer 18:23 Yet you, O LORD, know all their plotting to kill me. Forgive not their iniquity, nor blot out their sin from your sight. Let them be overthrown before you; deal with them in the time of your anger.

"Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"

The conditional covenant of the Law was spoiled by Israel's failure to obey.

The covenant of grace is conditioned on the obedience and works of Christ and is infallible to the saving of those whom God has chosen to receive it.

As you know, Israel (actually, Judea) degenerated into captivity, as it's northern cousins had already done. A perfect picture of man under the law - unable to attain the standard, helpless without the hand of God's grace.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Brother bound,

So what you are saying is before the 16th Century we were all just stumbling around with a limited understanding of Scripture until good ole Calvin established his exegesis?

I think the idea is this. If you are a Calvinist, or Arminian, one must take the Bible in context. What we had here before was a verse pulled fully out of context, and both sides should agree with this.

Although I believe that Calvin, not Calvinism, established a pretty good 'systematic' (i.e. intellectual) understanding of what the Bible states in it's most literal sense I see no reason to assume such an exegesis or sense of Scripture was historically shared by the Apostles or later Theologians before the Age of the Enlightenment. There is definitely a departure in the continuity in Christianity from it's inception as a historical religion and the development of it as an intellectual discipline of Scriptural Interpretation in Calvin's Exegesis.

Well you are right in that it has not been shared though out history thus the RCC. The Apostles time I would say yes it was. It then was hardly seen till the man from hippo started writing.

Rational? Yes! Historically consistent with the beliefs and practices of this religion? No!

I am not going to claim that the RCC ever held to the doctrines of grace. They may have for just a few years, and we see bright spots here and there, but in history one will find that grace was not talked about much at all until the reform hit. This is not to say that because of this fact the doctrines of grace are wrong. We need only look to the Bible to see this and not to man.

Such has always given me a reason to exercise a great deal of humility in my profession and over-confidence in the works of mere men.

I will agree with this.

Baptist Theology is by it's own profession of personal liberty and individual salvation a spiritual relationship between God and man and not one of merely 'intellectual exercise of an exegesis'. The Bible is surely 'the' Vehicle for our relationship but not necessarily one of the intellect only but of the spirit. Calvinism appears to have forgotten this.

I even agree with this to a point. Theology is not the work of God, but the study of God by man. However, I would place limits to this study, in that not all systems work. The only 3 that I know of and would allow are Arminianism, Calvinism, and hyper-Calvinisim. True Arminianism is not a heresy. I do not think hyper-Calvinism is a heresy if you understand it. But what I do see as a heresy is full freewill. Arminians were 1 point Calvinist. We have people on this board that says mans will was left intact after the fall. This is over the top and fully not of our faith. It is heresy!!

This is not my words, but the Bibles and ..you talk about the history...the history of the Church would agree with me as well.

I being a Calvinist see Calvinisim as the middle ground that WORKS. It address all the verses and gives understanding to the whole Bible. You do not find these in the other systems.


In Christ...James

 

[Jarthur001]

Not what I meant. We can study God's Word...or the work of men.

or both. But...tis the Word that counts.

 

[J.D.]

As I stated above, I ain't so smart, but I will try to answer your question.

If I look at Romans 9 by itself, I would probably conclude the same thing you do about it. However, I see calvinists trying to make the rest of scripture agree with Romans 9, instead of making Romans 9 agree with the rest of scripture. I confess, J.D., I don't have a perfect understanding of Romans 9. However, I do believe it is saying:

1) Paul desires the salvation of all of Isreal. (Is he more merciful than God?)
2) The Israelites are the people through which God chose to deliver to mankind, the law, the covenants, the gospel...etc.
3) However, they are sinners in need of a saviour, just like the Gentiles.
4) Their pride makes this hard to accept, "we believe we're good, and if we're bad, it's your fault"
5) God, as creator, has the right to set the conditions for all things.

I ain't so smart

Apparently, you're smarter than you realize as evidenced by your replies here.

I don't have a perfect understanding of Romans 9.

Then you should study it until you do understand it. John Piper took a whole year do nothing but that. What he came to understand is not what he initially hoped for.

However, I see calvinists trying to make the rest of scripture agree with Romans 9, instead of making Romans 9 agree with the rest of scripture.

This can cut both ways, can it not? But I say that I can find hardly a passage in the entire bible that does not in some way teach the total depravity of man and the total sovereignty of God.

Paul desires the salvation of all of Isreal. (Is he more merciful than God?)

God is both merciful and just. How God chooses to execute his mercy on some and justice on others is His business (which is street language for "after His own counsel"). Paul loved his own people, don't you? Does that mean that they don't deserve hell? Don't you deserve hell?

Their pride makes this hard to accept, "we believe we're good, and if we're bad, it's your fault"

Pride is a universal condition of all mankind, not just Israel. From a human standpoint, why shouldn't Israel be jeoulous against the Gentiles? After all, the Gentiles didn't even have the law, much less obey it.

If you were God, who would you save or condemn? And if you were God, who would you let dictate to you as to whom you could condemn and whom you could save?

God, as creator, has the right to set the conditions for all things.

Right. And didn't He set certain conditions for Israel to be saved through the law? And were those conditions met?

And under grace, what condition is there that we might meet that is not first obtained for us by Christ?

 

[jne1611]

Let's look at Scripture. Paul (being a pharisee) had vast knowledge of the OT, no? How does this play into what he says in Romans? Can't you see the context?
Jer 18:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD:
Jer 18:2 "Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will let you hear my words."
Jer 18:3 So I went down to the potter's house, and there he was working at his wheel.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me:
Jer 18:6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the LORD. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.
Jer 18:7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it,
Jer 18:8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it.
Jer 18:9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it,
Jer 18:10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.
Jer 18:11 Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: 'Thus says the LORD, behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds.'
Jer 18:12 "But they say, 'That is in vain! We will follow our own plans, and will every one act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.'
Jer 18:13 "Therefore thus says the LORD: Ask among the nations, Who has heard the like of this? The virgin Israel has done a very horrible thing.
Jer 18:14 Does the snow of Lebanon leave the crags of Sirion? Do the mountain waters run dry, the cold flowing streams?
Jer 18:15 But my people have forgotten me; they make offerings to false gods; they made them stumble in their ways, in the ancient roads, and to walk into side roads, not the highway,
Jer 18:16 making their land a horror, a thing to be hissed at forever. Everyone who passes by it is horrified and shakes his head.
Jer 18:17 Like the east wind I will scatter them before the enemy. I will show them my back, not my face, in the day of their calamity."
Jer 18:18 Then they said, "Come, let us make plots against Jeremiah, for the law shall not perish from the priest, nor counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophet. Come, let us strike him with the tongue, and let us not pay attention to any of his words."
Jer 18:19 Hear me, O LORD, and listen to the voice of my adversaries.
Jer 18:20 Should good be repaid with evil? Yet they have dug a pit for my life. Remember how I stood before you to speak good for them, to turn away your wrath from them.
Jer 18:21 Therefore deliver up their children to famine; give them over to the power of the sword; let their wives become childless and widowed. May their men meet death by pestilence, their youths be struck down by the sword in battle.
Jer 18:22 May a cry be heard from their houses, when you bring the plunderer suddenly upon them! For they have dug a pit to take me and laid snares for my feet.
Jer 18:23 Yet you, O LORD, know all their plotting to kill me. Forgive not their iniquity, nor blot out their sin from your sight. Let them be overthrown before you; deal with them in the time of your anger.

That does not look like an exposition of Rom 9 to me.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Blammo,

If I look at Romans 9 by itself, I would probably conclude the same thing you do about it. However, I see calvinists trying to make the rest of scripture agree with Romans 9, instead of making Romans 9 agree with the rest of scripture. I confess, J.D., I don't have a perfect understanding of Romans 9. However, I do believe it is saying:

This was not addressed to me, but I would like to reply it.

Anyone that reads the Bible though the looking glass of but one passage is a fool. If a Calvinist does this, it is wrong. If others do this, they too are wrong. ALL of Gods Word is ALL of Gods Word and must be read as one.

I should add, I have not seen this on this thread. I have seen many read the Bible though one verse. John 3:16.

Great verse...but not the full Bible.

 

[Blammo]

Apparently, you're smarter than you realize as evidenced by your replies here.

There has got to be sarcasm somewhere in that statement. :laugh:

Then you should study it until you do understand it. John Piper took a whole year do nothing but that. What he came to understand is not what he initially hoped for.

That is a good idea. I think I'll do that.

God is both merciful and just. How God chooses to execute his mercy on some and justice on others is His business (which is street language for "after His own counsel"). Paul loved his own people, don't you? Does that mean that they don't deserve hell? Don't you deserve hell?

Yes - No - Yes

ride is a universal condition of all mankind, not just Israel. From a human standpoint, why shouldn't Israel be jeoulous against the Gentiles? After all, the Gentiles didn't even have the law, much less obey it.

Right

And under grace, what condition is there that we might meet that is not first obtained for us by Christ?

None. What I was saying is that Israel must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation just like everyone else. That's the condition for salvation God gave to every man. (if)