Calvinism or Arminianism

[J.D.]

No calvinst has ever honestly been able to prove this from Scripture. If you can, you will be the first. I won't hold my breath. Regeneration is simultaneous with faith in Christ, and THIS is what the Bible supports.

I will give you this, that many Calvinists in fact agree that regeneration is chronologically simultaneous to conversion (repentance and faith), but all Calvinists that I know of believe that regeneration must be logically precedent to conversion. In other words, while regeneration and conversion may happen at exactly the same time, the "fuel" of conversion is regeneration.

I happen to hold the other view, that regeneration must preceed, chronologically, conversion; and I also believe that this chronological gap can be large.

As for scriptural proof, see my other post. Of course I realize that some folks on BB have the opinion that "scripture proves nothing".

 

[webdog]

but all Calvinists that I know of believe that regeneration must be logically precedent to conversion. In other words, while regeneration and conversion may happen at exactly the same time, the "fuel" of conversion is regeneration.

..and this is why we are not to "lean on our own understanding". When I was born at 10:25 pm, that was the moment of birth. The many hours leading up to that birth aren't considered the birth, but the exact moment I came out of the birth canal. The process of "reasoning together" with the Lord (Isaiah 1:18) leads to the new birth, and is NOT the result of it.

 

[J.D.]

..and this is why we are not to "lean on our own understanding". When I was born at 10:25 pm, that was the moment of birth. The many hours leading up to that birth aren't considered the birth, but the exact moment I came out of the birth canal. The process of "reasoning together" with the Lord (Isaiah 1:18) leads to the new birth, and is NOT the result of it.

So, did Israel "reason" with God? What were the results of this "process of reasoning together"?

And if salvation depends upon the ability to "reason", then where does that leave those with no capacity to reason?

 

[Blammo]

You heard, and you resisted. Whom did you resist? And then you stopped resisting and believed. Why did you resist in the first place? Wasn't the Gospel disagreeable to your fallen, prideful nature? And did the Gospel suddenly become agreeable to your fallen, prideful nature? Who turned the key in your heart to make the Gospel agreeable to you? Did you turn the key, or was it the work of God?

I was resisting the word of God.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I was scared to death of my cousin. Do you know how silly that is? She is a wimpy little gal. There was something powerful in those words she was preaching.

I was full of pride.

How dare she say I am not good.
How dare she say I am going to hell.
How dare she say I am a sinner.

Then one night, my pride left me. I realized what a worthless, no good, rotten sinner I was. All the scripture my cousin had preached at me came flooding into my mind. I made a decision to ask God to save me as my cousin had urged me I should. God saved me right then and there.

Was this the work of God? (All of it?) Yes, absolutely, I have never, nor will I ever doubt it.

 

[J.D.]

I was resisting the word of God.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I was scared to death of my cousin. Do you know how silly that is? She is a wimpy little gal. There was something powerful in those words she was preaching.

I was full of pride.

How dare she say I am not good.
How dare she say I am going to hell.
How dare she say I am a sinner.

Then one night, my pride left me. I realized what a worthless, no good, rotten sinner I was. All the scripture my cousin had preached at me came flooding into my mind. I made a decision to ask God to save me as my cousin had urged me I should. God saved me right then and there.

Was this the work of God? (All of it?) Yes, absolutely, I have never, nor will I ever doubt it.

AMEN, PRAISE THE LORD!

 

[Brother Bob]

Scripture says "resist the devil" and he will flee from you. Well looks like a dead person can do something, like resist the devil.

 

[J.D.]

Scripture says "resist the devil" and he will flee from you. Well looks like a dead person can do something, like resist the devil.

That was written to believers.

 

[Brother Bob]

Then one night, my pride left me. I realized what a worthless, no good, rotten sinner I was. All the scripture my cousin had preached at me came flooding into my mind. I made a decision to ask God to save me as my cousin had urged me I should. God saved me right then and there.

That was you Blammo, well amen to you. You said you made the decision and you ask God to save you.

 

[Blammo]

That was you Blammo, well amen to you. You said you made the decision and you ask God to save you.

Yes sir!!!

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Praise God!!!

 

[webdog]

So, did Israel "reason" with God? What were the results of this "process of reasoning together"?

As every other human being...yes, and they continue to reason to this day, although their reasoning remanis flawed.

And if salvation depends upon the ability to "reason", then where does that leave those with no capacity to reason?

Like babies and the MD? Grace. I know calvinists hate the word "justice", but God doesn't.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Scripture says "resist the devil" and he will flee from you. Well looks like a dead person can do something, like resist the devil.


J.D. That was written to believers.

It was written to the twelve tribes of which was full of everything in the world as the chapter shows. Just because they were children of Israel did not mean they were believers. Only a remnant received the Lord.

James; 4



1: From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2: Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3: Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4: Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5: Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6: But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7: Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8: Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9: Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10: Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
11: Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12: There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
13: Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
14: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15: For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
16: But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
17: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

 

[J.D.]

From your own post:

The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

That describes a believer, not someone "dead".

 

[J.D.]

On further review, I see that this "spirit" that lusts to envy can be taken to be the human spirit which drives us to envy. I've always taken it as the Holy Spirit within us which "lusts against the flesh" Gal 5. Either application is true of a believer, and every indication is that James was written to believers. Perhaps his target audience was the diasporic jews, but it had to be the believing jews he had in mind.

"...to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. 2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 3 Knowing [this], that the trying of your faith worketh patience."

Clearly not addressed to unbelievers.

 

[Brother Bob]

James was written to the twelve tribe those that received Christ and those who did not.

 

[J.D.]

As every other human being...yes, and they continue to reason to this day, although their reasoning remanis flawed.

Like babies and the MD? Grace. I know calvinists hate the word "justice", but God doesn't.

Every man's ability to reason is flawed as it pertains to the things of God.

But did they all turned away from God? Apparently not.

"Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, [and] we should have been like unto Gomorrah." (v9)

God left Israel a remnant. This was the work of God.

What is MD?

Last time I checked, our strawman said he hates the word "Love". Guess now I have to add "justice" to the list of things strawman hates.

 

[jne1611]

Salvation is either

(1) Monergistic

or

(2) Synergistic

Pick one.


There is no middle ground.

Absolutly!

 

[jne1611]

And BTW it was Pelagius that stirred the controversy, not Augustine. Augustine's famous prayer "Lord, grant to us what you require of us, and require of us what you will" was attacked by Pelagius and his followers. Likewise, it was Arminius and his followers that attacked the orthodox doctrines of the reformation.

Augustine didn't "invent" the doctrine of absolute sovereignty of God. Maybe the record gets blurred before Augustine, but the original record is clear, both in the New Testament and in the Old Testament.

Amen to that!

 

[jne1611]

No calvinst has ever honestly been able to prove this from Scripture. If you can, you will be the first. I won't hold my breath. Regeneration is simultaneous with faith in Christ, and THIS is what the Bible supports.

I see this as well. The two are inseparable. But they both are produced by God.

 

[jne1611]

Scripture says "resist the devil" and he will flee from you. Well looks like a dead person can do something, like resist the devil.

Come on now Bob. That was not written to the lost:laugh:

 

[jne1611]

As every other human being...yes, and they continue to reason to this day, although their reasoning remanis flawed.

Like babies and the MD? Grace. I know calvinists hate the word "justice", but God doesn't.

Where in the world do you get the idea that Calvinist's hate the word justice? That word is more common in Calvinistic writings than any other word!