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Calvinism or Arminianism

Brother Bob

New Member
He was already lost! Paul makes that clear.

This took place before the scripture where God said he would raise him up.

Obeidiance is better than sacrifice and Pharaoh disobeyed God so it was Pharaoh who chose to disobey God. Now there is your answer, will you accept it or come up with something else?
 

jne1611

Member
Brother Bob said:
Obeidiance is better than sacrifice and Pharaoh disobeyed God so it was Pharaoh who chose to disobey God. Now there is your answer, will you accept it or come up with something else?
Well there you have it. It was God's will that he disobey! If not God had a funny way of showing it. It was ordained to God's glory with Pharaohs destruction!
 

Brother Bob

New Member
God is everlasting to everlasting and knows all and sees all. He did not make Pharaoh be disobeident but saw that he would be, so any choosing God did on his part was because he already knew what Pharaoh would do.
You do know that God is a timeless God don't you?
 

jne1611

Member
Brother Bob said:
This took place before the scripture where God said he would raise him up.

Obeidiance is better than sacrifice and Pharaoh disobeyed God so it was Pharaoh who chose to disobey God. Now there is your answer, will you accept it or come up with something else?
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Found in the same context. You cant get much further than before they were born can you! Then up comes Pharoah for illustration in the same chapter. Coincidence, I think not.
 

Brother Bob

New Member
God is everlasting to everlasting and knows all and sees all. He did not make Pharaoh be disobeident but saw that he would be, so any choosing God did on his part was because he already knew what Pharaoh would do.
You do know that God is a timeless God don't you?
__________________
Do I sense anger :) or is that fear :applause: :laugh:
 

jne1611

Member
Brother Bob said:
God is everlasting to everlasting and knows all and sees all. He did not make Pharaoh be disobeident but saw that he would be, so any choosing God did on his part was because he already knew what Pharaoh would do.
You do know that God is a timeless God don't you?
If that was the case. Paul would never have supposed the question:
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Why if Paul was preaching conditioned predestination based on foreknown disobedience, they would have said Amen!
No Bro. Bob, what Paul was preaching was conditioned on God's will alone & that was a problem for those who want all to depend on man!
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Brother Bob said:
"under the sun" means the life and death of a man. What he chooses to do, whether to enjoy the fruits of his labor or leave it to some one else, and that all is vanity without God. Men only concerned about the things of this life and not looking for the Wisdom. The point is James that the opportunity to choose Wisdom is "under the sun also", Which is to choose to live for God.

The most important thing about the whole book of Ecclesiastes is the Preacher is telling us that the Wisdom of God is what we should all be seeking, and that time and chance has happened unto all to get that Wisdom which is of God. That man is vanity without God (which is Wisdom) and all that man does if he don't get Wisdom then it is all in vain.

The whole book could be answered in one Scripture from the NT and that is: Lay up your treasures in Heaven where theifs and moths doth not break in and steal. Also, where your treasure is also is your heart. Ecc; is all about men loving the world more than God.

I am more convinced now than ever it means "time and chance has happened unto all men to have Wisdom which is Love of God".

1: For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in

the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them.

2: All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to

the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth,

as he that feareth an oath.

3: This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the

sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

4: For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

5: For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the

memory of them is forgotten.

6: Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing

that is done under the sun.

7: Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.

8: Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.

9: Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the

sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.

10: Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in

the grave, whither thou goest.

11: I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the

wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

12: For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the

snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.

13: This wisdom have I seen also under the sun, and it seemed great unto me:

14: There was a little city, and few men within it; and there came a great king against it, and besieged it, and built great

15: Now there was found in it a poor wise man, and he by his wisdom delivered the city; yet no man remembered that same

poor man.

16: Then said I, Wisdom is better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom is despised, and his words are not

heard.

17: The words of wise men are heard in quiet more than the cry of him that ruleth among fools.

18: Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good.


With as much respect as I can, as man to man, I disagree with this post unequivocally and think it maybe the WORST exegesis on this text I have ever seen in my 30 years of Bible study. Maybe a look back into your old hermeneutics classes or books would help in this, but there is so much to address I do not know where to start.

I in no way claim to know it all, and I do not claim even the title of theologian. I do understand context, and I know it is more then grammar. One must look at the writer, the goal of the writer. It is clear you do not understand what you just did to the rest of the book and the message of the writer.


In Christ...James
 

jne1611

Member
Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Man's doctrine says " No God, you had 7 thousand volunteers! God says they were elect! Man says God was elected! Connect the dots. God's reserved are God's elect!
 
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Brother Bob

New Member
With as much respect as I can, as man to man, I disagree with this post unequivocally and think it maybe the WORST exegesis on this text I have ever seen in my 30 years of Bible study. Maybe a look back into your old hermeneutics classes or books would help in this, but there is so much to address I do not know where to start.

I in no way claim to know it all, and I do not claim even the title of theologian. I do understand context, and I know it is more then grammar. One must look at the writer, the goal of the writer. It is clear you do not understand what you just did to the rest of the book and the message of the writer.


In Christ...James
Now, if you want to start with the bashing you will have to be more specific. The book is about the vanities of man and the Wisdom of God. So, put that in your pipe and smoke it. I could say a lot of bad things about you but I will restrain.

Sounds like I really hit home though.
 
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Brother Bob

New Member
[Man's doctrine says " No God, you had 7 thousand volunteers! God says they were elect! Man says God was elected!
/QUOTE]
No one has ever stated that Israel was not the elect. Why even Paul told us that.
 

jne1611

Member
Brother Bob said:
[Man's doctrine says " No God, you had 7 thousand volunteers! God says they were elect! Man says God was elected!
/QUOTE]
No one has ever stated that Israel was not the elect. Why even Paul told us that.
Just because it is dealing with the Jews does not get you off the hook. Back up to Rom 9 and you'll find gentiles in the context!
And by the way. Not all Jews are God's elect.
 

BD17

New Member
jne1611 said:
Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

It is apparent that God prevented Pharaoh from letting the people go. That is the answer. Could he let them go? No!
So here you have God commanding: Exo 5:1 And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness.

And yet pharoah could not obey the command!
Here you have God commanding something that can not be done! Does that sound fair to you? If not, you are not alone! Paul said it would not!

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Fantastic!! NT supported by OT won't see that from an Armeniast
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Brother Bob said:
Now, if you want to start with the bashing you will have to be more specific. The book is about the vanities of man and the Wisdom of God. So, put that in your pipe and smoke it. I could say a lot of bad things about you but I will restrain.

Sounds like I really hit home though.
yes...it was out of the ball park that is for sure.
 

Brother Bob

New Member
Here is Paul talking to the same people.
Ephesians, chapter 1
11": In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

"12": That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

"13": In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
 

jne1611

Member
Brother Bob said:
Here is Paul talking to the same people.
Ephesians, chapter 1
11": In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

"12": That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

"13": In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Who here do you know that has said that the elect will not believe? And your running from the issue as fast as you can because you know it is nailing your hide to the wall.
 

Brother Bob

New Member
You Calvinist are laughfulable. You make same old statements over and over and you need each other for support or you fall flat on your face. Here comes BD17 and I just post that God was everlasting to everlasting which you all just love when you are predestinating something but when it tears down your playhouse then you start whinning.


Roma.09

25:
As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26: And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Of course it was foreknown that God would accept the Gentiles in and also was foreordained for He knew that Israel would commit adultery.
 
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