Calvinism Question : How does God work through the Soul?

[Iconoclast]

so, when we read in Acts 17:30, " “Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent", that God is not really serious with His command here, because "all men" cannot repent? So, why did Jesus says to the Jews in John 5, who wanted to murder Him, that, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to Me that you may have life." (39-40). That they REFUSED, showing that they had the ABILITY to ACCEPT! The Greek does not allow the suggestion, "they could not come"! This same truth is taught in Acts 13:46, "Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles." where ἀπωθεῖσθε, in the middle voice, is better, "you yourselves" reject the Gospel!

No...they refused showing total inability to come.
Spiritual dead people need a heart transplant.
All men are responsible to repent and believe the gospel.
They do not desire God, they desire sin.
They will not seek God on His terms,unless and until God draws them effectually, psalm 110,in 6

 

[SavedByGrace]

No...they refused showing total inability to come

so why exactly would Jesus say to them that they REFUSED to come, if they were not able to in the first place? this makes Jesus not know what He is on about!

 

[Iconoclast]

so why exactly would Jesus say to them that they REFUSED to come, if they were not able to in the first place? this makes Jesus not know what He is on about!

No. He is letting them know exactly where they stand.
Same as in jn8:24

 

[Iconoclast]

The command choose, does not imply an ability, apart from Divine enablement.
Jesus commanded people, rise up and walk,stretch forth your hand, Lazarus, come forth
They were commanded to do what they could not.

S.B.G., you skipped addressing this. How did these three examples take place?
How did they obey the voice command of Jesus?

 

[SavedByGrace]

S.B.G., you skipped addressing this. How did these three examples take place?
How did they obey the voice command of Jesus?

meaning exactly what?

 

[Yeshua1]

a sinner is "born-anew" only AFTER they repent of their sins and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour. It is when the Holy Spirit "convicts" the sinner, and makes them aware of their sinful lives, and the need to repent and believe, that those who respond, and do so, are "born-again". Not as some Reformed teach, that the Holy Spirit first needs to "regenerate" the heart, and "make" the sinner call upon the Lord, and then they are saved. This is being "born-again" TWICE! I think people like Sproul taught such unbiblical nonsense

He actually was teaching what the Bible stated!

 

[SavedByGrace]

He actually was teaching what the Bible stated!

who was?

 

[Yeshua1]

who was?

Dr RC

 

[LaGrange]

Hi LaGrange, my response is from the perspective of a non-Calvinist.

First, let me illustrate a point. When I was in Junior (Middle) school, I loved to draw "mazes." And as a person would try to draw a line through the many twists and turns, they usually ended up at a dead end, and had to back to find where they had made the wrong turn. And no matter how many turns were made after the first wrong turn, all the rest always ended at a dead end. Reaching the right understanding of biblical doctrine requires we make all the right turns, because once we are off the true path, we end up with false doctrine.

In you first question, you used two biblical terms - soul and sanctification process. The body of Christ, made up of professing believers is split as to what constitutes a "human soul." Many believe humans are made up of three parts, body, soul and spirit. Others (including myself) believe we are made up of two parts - the human physical body and the human spirit/soul.
Thus, according to the turn I have taken, when we are spiritually born anew, our human spirit/soul is altered such that it is a new creation. Then, only after we are spiritually made new, are we indwelt with our Helper, the Holy Spirit.

The second term - sanctification process - appears to by referencing "progressive sanctification" where we grow more Christ-like and a more effective witness for Christ. Here is a verse that addresses the concept:

2Corinthians 3:18
And we all, with unveiled faces reflecting the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another, which is from the Lord, who is the Spirit. (NET)

The key here is to recognize this process, comes after we are born anew, and thus through our love of Christ, are trying to follow Him.

Now let me turn to the many points you made in your last paragraph:

1) Yes, we are caused to be born anew by God alone.
2) Irresistible Grace means something very different in the Calvinist view. In their view it transforms a person unable to trust in Christ, to being compelled to have faith instilled by God. But if you limit your view to just being placed spiritually into Christ, yes that action is irresistible.
3) No, being "dead in our sins and trespasses" does not mean being unable to make holy choices. Many verses demonstrate fallen people can make holy choices, such as the men "entering" the kingdom in Matthew 23:13.
4) Yes we do not "in any way" save ourselves. God chooses those whose faith He, and He alone credits as righteousness, by placing them individually into Christ, where we undergo the washing of regeneration and arise a new creation, born anew by the will of God.

I know you would have to retrace many steps to be able to accept this very different view from yours, but my hope is in God.

Hi Van,

Thank you for spending time to respond. The part in my post you quoted above was not mine but from an article by R. C. Sproul. I put that at the end because he spoke about grace being in the soul. He said that grace is in the soul yet God does it all. This makes me want to ask: Does this grace affect the Intellect and Will or does it bypass it and simply “pull” the soul in the right direction?

 

[Iconoclast]

meaning exactly what?

Meaning these three examples these men were commanded to do something that in and of themself they could not do so how did that get done? Where could the crippled man rise up and walk? The man with the withered arm?Lazarus?

 

[Van]

Hi Van,

Thank you for spending time to respond. The part in my post you quoted above was not mine but from an article by R. C. Sproul. I put that at the end because he spoke about grace being in the soul. He said that grace is in the soul yet God does it all. This makes me want to ask: Does this grace affect the Intellect and Will or does it bypass it and simply “pull” the soul in the right direction?

When scripture says we are born anew, we are spiritually born anew, that means our human spirit/soul is born anew, thus a new creation created for good works. And then, after we are in Christ and regenerated (born anew spiritually) we are sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit. Thus our Helper is in union with our spirit/soul and can communicate with subtle feelings. When we are faced with a dilemma where we are unsure which path to take, we can sometimes pray and ponder and come to a "good" feeling (or a better feeling) about one of the choices. Why not accept the claims of some that God speaks to them with words? Scripture makes reference to "groaning"to deep for words.

As far as our Helper "pulling"or compelling and thus "bypassing" that would be inconsistent with our ability to "quench" the Spirit.
As in the maze, we can still take wrong turns, and build upon the foundation of Christ with a ministry that does not earn rewards, thus we still enter heaven, but as one escaping from a fire.

Grace refers in this context to God's unilateral actions for our benefit, thus by grace is our filthy rag faith credited as righteousness, by grace are we chosen and placed into Christ spiritually, by grace do we undergo the washing of regeneration, by grace are we born anew, by grace are we sealed in Christ, and by grace, we grow more mature in Christ by the influence of our indwelt Holy Spirit.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Meaning these three examples these men were commanded to do something that in and of themself they could not do so how did that get done? Where could the crippled man rise up and walk? The man with the withered arm?Lazarus?

in and of ourselves, ALL sinners can do NOTHING! It is ONLY be the Grace of the Lord, working through the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, in the sinners heart, can than convict and then when the sinner "repents and believes", they are regenerated (born-again). Salvation, from start to finish, is the work of God the Holy Spirit! So God gets ALL of the Glory in the salvation of each sinner! There is NO sinner that can get up one morning, and then in and of themselves, say, "I am going to accept Jesus today"! This is humanly IMPOSSIBLE!

 

[LaGrange]

"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread". Explaining HOW GOD DOES WHAT ONLY GOD DOES seems like a perfect example, but I never let that stop me before so let's rush in.

Have you ever fallen in love?
Did the other person MAKE YOU FALL IN LOVE WITH THEM?
Did you use your INTELLECT and logically decide to fall in love with them?
Was it your sense of SELF that desired to fall in love with them?

I cannot talk about how God saves anyone else, however I am the worlds leading expert on MY SALVATION. I was there for every moment of it and allowed to hear all of my innermost thoughts. So I will talk about the only thing that I know for sure and you can compare that with whatever other data you can gather.

I had no interest in anything of god or religion. I had been to 20 obligatory church services by age 11 and had rejected the Jesus of Sunday School as no more real or relevant than the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus. That the world is evil was as self-evident as the fact that "god" did nothing about it. So I settled into Nihilism early as the logical conclusion of atheism. "We are born and we die and when we are gone, we do not even leave behind a hole to show that we were here." So I was approaching the age when life ends ... 18 to 21. The age in my world when everyone I knew disappeared. Killed in a drug deal gone bad. Suicide by cop. 25 to life in prison. These were the options and age 18-21 was the typical time frame when luck ran out and the odds caught up with you. If there was a God, then He had a lot of willful neglect to answer for and I certainly belonged in Hell because He was no friend of mine. I only tell you this to emphasize that "seeking God" was the absolute last thing on my mind.

Skipping the nuts and bolts details of how I got saved, let's just focus on the SOUL and what happened in there.
First came a direct attack upon the INTELLECT and the WILL. The discovery of evidence of the POSSIBILITY of bot God and Meaning. A direct attack on my worldview that stirred an ember of hope in a soul fully ready to die and just choosing how. That did not bring me to salvation, that just opened my eyes to "reality". God seduced my soul ... both my WILL and MIND. God spoke, like Saul on the road to Damascus, and I like to joke "God made me an offer that I couldn't refuse". There is more than a little truth in that. On an INTELLECTUAL level, God offered me a complete exchange of everything I had for everything that He had.

• I would give God the death that I had planned; God would give me a new life.
• I would give the anger; God would give peace.
• I would give want; God would supply needs.
• I would surrender wrongs; God would seek justice.
• I would yield despair; God would grant hope

There is a word that I learned years later that describes the INTELLECTUAL contract that I made with God that day: "bondi" (slave, bond-servant) and it is described in the OT:

[Deuteronomy 15:12-17 NASB]
"If your kinsman, a Hebrew man or woman, is sold to you, then he shall serve you six years, but in the seventh year you shall set him free. "When you set him free, you shall not send him away empty-handed. "You shall furnish him liberally from your flock and from your threshing floor and from your wine vat; you shall give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you. "You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God redeemed you; therefore I command you this today. "It shall come about if he says to you, 'I will not go out from you,' because he loves you and your household, since he fares well with you; then you shall take an awl and pierce it through his ear into the door, and he shall be your servant forever. Also you shall do likewise to your maidservant.​

However, salvation is not just an INTELLECTUAL decision. It touches the WILL as well. Before Christ, I was the center of the universe ... "cogniti ergo som" (I think therefore I am). Everything else was measured in relation to a ME-centric universe. Since the center of the universe had a finite existence, the universe has no ultimate meaning or purpose. Once there is a SON centered universe and I am just a small body orbiting around it, then I can serve a greater purpose even as a lifeless moon controls the tides on an Earth full of Life that can praise God. My WILL found its purpose.

I started talking about "falling in love". I think that God seduced me and I was powerless to resist. I am a being that was created for the purpose of Worshiping God, any other purpose is a cheap ill-fitting alternative. I was created to serve and obey God and any other action is a puzzle piece forced into the wrong place. I am a being that was created for fellowship and love with God and any other love is a tawdry lust affair that cannot satisfy. So when I met the God that defines PERFECT GOODNESS, my entire being just instinctively sings out for joy. I can worship as I was created to do ... I HAVE PURPOSE. I can serve and obey ... I FINALLY FIT. I have found fellowship and love ... MY SOUL IS COMPLETE. How can you not fall in love with your PERFECT CREATOR when you meet Him.

Hi Atpollard,
You gave a moving testimony of how you were saved and I know you are showing me how God’s Grace affected your intellect and Will. What I’m looking for is a more theological answer like Calvin would give in his Institutes or something like that. It’s more of an academic answer I’m looking for. It’s hard for me to relate to Calvinistic theology where it’s second nature to you. The language has to be very precise for me to get it. Matter of fact, it’s like learning a new language. Thanks for trying so hard. I have other questions that may be a little easier to explain. Most of my other questions have to do with interpreting sentences Calvin wrote in his works. Thanks so much!

 

[LaGrange]

Hi LaGrange,

I think we spoke before on a similar issue, but in case we didn't, I recommend you read the relevant chapters of Dr. Millard J. Ericsson's Christian Theology.

My concern is that if you don't get a good answer here, which is ultimately just a layperson's Forum, you might incorrectly believe that there is no answer to your question and give up searching.

Dr. Millard J. Ericsson is a professional theologian and his book Christian Theology addresses these issues. Alternatively, you could write to a Protestant minister or visit a Protestant Church and ask for their guidance.

As a brief overview, from someone who is just a lay Theologian, I would recommend an analogy I was once given.

In our pre-Fall state we perfectly reflected the image of God just as a clear and undamaged mirror reflects our physical image well today.

However, a cracked and damaged mirror will reflect a broken and disjointed image of us. As fallen creatures the image of God we now have is damaged and corrupted. Due to sin (both Original and Personal) we are now cracked and damaged reflections of the One who made us. Glory be to His Name!

All parts of our nature are now corrupted. All parts of our being are now corrupted. Nothing remains of us that is not affected. We need to be renewed in every aspect of our being.

Pls consider:
"And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can’t."
Romans 7:18
New Living Translation Bible

And also:
"Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will."
Romans 12:2
New International Version

Hi Parashah,
Yes you did on my initial thread where I introduced myself. I think the spelling is Erickson. I bookmarked his name and his book. Right after you posted another guy mentioned an author named John Frame. Thank you so much!

 

[LaGrange]

As far as our Helper "pulling"or compelling and thus "bypassing" that would be inconsistent with our ability to "quench" the Spirit.

Hi Van,
I understand what you are saying but Calvinist Theology teaches Irresistible Grace and Total Depravity. I realize Total Depravity isn’t there during the Sanctification Process but Irresistible Grace is (On this forum some have told me there’s depravity but not total depravity). I think you are a mainstream Baptist? You probably wouldn’t agree with Irresistible Grace (pulling or compulsion) but strict Calvinists do. If you are a mainstream Baptist you probably believe in Free Will but Calvinists don’t. I still would like to know theologically how grace works through the soul without Free Will. I’m looking for the mechanics of it. I may be wrong on everything I just said and, if I am, that’s why I am asking! Lol Thank you so much for listening!

 

[Van]

Hi Van,
I understand what you are saying but Calvinist Theology teaches Irresistible Grace and Total Depravity. I realize Total Depravity isn’t there during the Sanctification Process but Irresistible Grace is (On this forum some have told me there’s depravity but not total depravity). I think you are a mainstream Baptist? You probably wouldn’t agree with Irresistible Grace (pulling or compulsion) but strict Calvinists do. If you are a mainstream Baptist you probably believe in Free Will but Calvinists don’t. I still would like to know theologically how grace works through the soul without Free Will. I’m looking for the mechanics of it. I may be wrong on everything I just said and, if I am, that’s why I am asking! Lol Thank you so much for listening!

Hi LaGrange,
I do not think "Calvinist Theology" (the TULI of the Tulip) is the correct understanding of scripture. Yes I am, or like to think I am, a mainstream Baptist. Calvinists use a lot of terms, such as irresistible grace, but when defined, are inconsistent with scripture, again as I understand scripture.

First, let me address the term "total depravity" which means, according to Calvinism, the fallen are unable to seek God, or trust in Christ such that they will be saved by grace through faith. To support this they define being "spiritually dead" as being unable to make holy (godly) volitions. But as I may have said, Matthew 23:13 teaches some of the fallen were seeking God, yet were not being compelled by irresistible grace.

I have addressed how the Holy Spirit works with our human spirit/soul, or at least my understanding of that question based on scripture rather than Calvinist dogma.

Last point, our will is not totally free, it is constrained by the limits God has imposed. We might will to flap our arms and fly, but that God has constrained. Scripture says salvation does not depend upon the man that wills, (Romans 9:16) which teaches two things, (1) man can will to be saved, thus the Calvinist understanding of total depravity is unscriptural, and (2) salvation does not depend upon our willing or working to be saved, it depends on God alone.

 

[LaGrange]

Hi LaGrange,
I do not think "Calvinist Theology" (the TULI of the Tulip) is the correct understanding of scripture. Yes I am, or like to think I am, a mainstream Baptist. Calvinists use a lot of terms, such as irresistible grace, but when defined, are inconsistent with scripture, again as I understand scripture.

First, let me address the term "total depravity" which means, according to Calvinism, the fallen are unable to seek God, or trust in Christ such that they will be saved by grace through faith. To support this they define being "spiritually dead" as being unable to make holy (godly) volitions. But as I may have said, Matthew 23:13 teaches some of the fallen were seeking God, yet were not being compelled by irresistible grace.

I have addressed how the Holy Spirit works with our human spirit/soul, or at least my understanding of that question based on scripture rather than Calvinist dogma.

Last point, our will is not totally free, it is constrained by the limits God has imposed. We might will to flap our arms and fly, but that God has constrained. Scripture says salvation does not depend upon the man that wills, (Romans 9:16) which teaches two things, (1) man can will to be saved, thus the Calvinist understanding of total depravity is unscriptural, and (2) salvation does not depend upon our willing or working to be saved, it depends on God alone.

(see my responses inside your quote)

Hi Van,

Hi LaGrange,
I do not think "Calvinist Theology" (the TULI of the Tulip) is the correct understanding of scripture. Yes I am, or like to think I am, a mainstream Baptist. Calvinists use a lot of terms, such as irresistible grace, but when defined, are inconsistent with scripture, again as I understand scripture.

First, let me address the term "total depravity" which means, according to Calvinism, the fallen are unable to seek God, or trust in Christ such that they will be saved by grace through faith. To support this they define being "spiritually dead" as being unable to make holy (godly) volitions. But as I may have said, Matthew 23:13 teaches some of the fallen were seeking God, yet were not being compelled by irresistible grace.

My Comment: I understand. Matt 23:13 shows they were given graces and they resisted.

I have addressed how the Holy Spirit works with our human spirit/soul, or at least my understanding of that question based on scripture rather than Calvinist dogma.

Last point, our will is not totally free, it is constrained by the limits God has imposed. We might will to flap our arms and fly, but that God has constrained. Scripture says salvation does not depend upon the man that wills, (Romans 9:16) which teaches two things, (1) man can will to be saved, thus the Calvinist understanding of total depravity is unscriptural, and (2) salvation does not depend upon our willing or working to be saved, it depends on God alone.

My Comment: I think I understand what you are saying. In this part you are saying that there are things God is responsible for, so to speak, and there are things man is responsible for. I’m trying not to judge it one way or another but to understand it correctly, the way a Calvinist would. Thanks for sharing your view. I’m not sure if you have heard of Leighton Flowers but he has a lot of Youtube Videos on Calvinism. He is Baptist and he refers to himself as a “Provisionalist” or “Traditionalist” when it comes to Predestination. He’s always in a fierce battle with James White. I’ve watched a lot of his videos. He is an adjunct professor at Dallas Baptist University. Thanks again!

 

[LaGrange]

Hi Everyone,

I want to thank you for all your Charity and time. I got a few insights into this subject. I do have more questions and I’ll put another one on a new thread next week. Thanks again!

 

[Alan Gross]

Hi Everyone,

My Question

How does God work through the soul during the sanctification process? If the soul is made up of Intellect and Will (at least that’s what distinguishes us from animals, plants and rocks) and the soul is still in Total Depravity, where does the grace reside in the soul? It can’t be in the intellect and will. I think this is probably why Jonathan Edwards believed in “Continuous Creation” (My understanding is that Catholic Theologian Fr Bernard Lonergan entertained that idea too). Also, this is probably where Irresistible Grace comes in because, in the soul, there would have to be something that “pulled” the soul toward sanctification and glory since it’s dead and depraved. If Faith is a substance (Heb 11:1) where does this substance reside? John Piper says the idea of Continuous Creation is a minority view in Calvinism but it seems logical in a certain sort of way. It seems the grace would have to be in a third place in the soul yet I understand Calvinists believe in the dichotomist view of the soul. In the 1646 Westminster Confession of Faith Larger Catechism questions 67,77,79,80 and 81 touch on “Infused Grace” and you see this exact term in question #77. R. C. Sproul, in the article below, refers to “grace in the soul” and then says “salvation must be something that God does in us and for us, not something that we ‘in any way’ do for ourselves” which seems to mean man must always be depraved so God does it all through the soul.


Ligonier Ministries
R. C. Sproul’s Website
Grace “in” the soul

Article:
Tulip and Reformed Theology: Irresistible Grace
By R.C. Sproul
April 15, 2017

In addition, when He exercises this “grace in the soul”, He brings about the effect that He intends to bring about. When God created you, He brought you into existence. You didn’t help Him. It was His sovereign work that brought you to life biologically. Likewise, it is His work, and His alone, that brings you into the state of rebirth and of renewed creation. Hence, we call this irresistible grace. It’s grace that works. It’s grace that brings about what God wants it to bring about. If, indeed, we are dead in sins and trespasses, if, indeed, our wills are held captive by the lusts of our flesh and we need to be liberated from our flesh in order to be saved, then in the final analysis, “salvation must be something that God does in us and for us, not something that we ‘in any way’ do for ourselves.”

There is a New Nature, in addition to the old depraved Nature.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Mans will is not free.Free will is a false philosophical term.
Once saved,we are free to serve God, never free to sin.

I agree and understand your point.

That being said, I will stick my nose into the discussion in an attempt to put a little different light on it. Here goes:

To repeat what I have posted numerous times prior, Lucifer was the first created being to invoke his (free?)will. Therefore, as Martin Luther and Charles Spurgeon concluded, freewill is a lie of Satan.

Once saved, we have the ability to serve God by accomplishing tasks that are acceptable to Him and that He can bless. When we were separated from Him by our trespasses and sins, that was not possible.

Sinning is our natural bent. Herein lies the struggle for the Christian.
[Rom 7:15 KJV] 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
[Heb 12:1 KJV] 1 ..." let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

I don't know where you get your "theology" from? this is complete rubbish!

Hopefully, you will have a different take of Iconoclast's theology.