And I define it as if some are predestined to salvation then all others are automatically predestined to damnation.
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Calvinism : Questions
- Thread starter LaGrange
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And I define it as if some are predestined to salvation then all others are automatically predestined to damnation.
That stands to reason.
If God is omniscient then everything is predestined to occur as God knew it would prior to Creation. Those God knew would be saved will be saved. Those God knew would remain lost will be condemned.
God decreed that this would happen by His act of creation.
If one thing is not predestined then that thing exists out of God's purview.
I dont hold to Calvinisms view of predestination
Neither do I. But I do believe everything is predestined.
I believe that those who believe are predestined to be the sons of God
Do you believe God is omniscient?
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
We would all be hot under the collar and post insults, etc., without first praying and trying to have a contributing, peaceful, spirit.
Just pray each time and you will be fine.
Those prayers may lead you to watch and avoid some like the plague.
I am just interested in What Worships God.
Welcome.
May God clobber (Mercifully) you WITH HIS TRUTH, like all of us, if we need adjustment and not WITH our flesh ATTEMPTING TO WORK THE GRACE of GOD!!!
That doesn't even work.
WELCOME, WELCOME, WELCOME.
This is key here, sir! If one believes in God's omniscience it would logically stand to reason that we live in a universe that is determined.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
How ? they refused to believe the truth so as to be saved .
Yep.
This is the reason we see some redefining omniscience to mean knowing all that can be known at a given time. It is to exclude knowledge of contingent events.
To illustrate a problem with that definition: prior to our conception our births were contingent. God would have been ignorant of our future existance and any events contingent on our existence as foreknowledge would not exist.
Either everything is predestined or Open Theology is correct. There are no other logical options.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
What of Schrödinger's cat?
Cannot multiple possibilities simultaneously exist that collapse into a single reality once the action is taken, yet an Omniscient God already know which possibility will ultimately become reality?
I am only asking if LOGIC actually demands Determinism from Omniscience.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Isaiah 46, God declares the end from the beginning, so God's will can not be thwarted
The end is as determined as the beginning, God does what He wills according to His pleasure.
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’
And we have at the Jerusalem council in Acts15, with all the Lord's apostles there this is said.
18 “Known to God from eternity of old are all His works.
So there really are not any other possibilities and God just chooses one like picking out of a hat.
The end is as determined as the beginning, God does what He wills according to His pleasure.
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’
And we have at the Jerusalem council in Acts15, with all the Lord's apostles there this is said.
18 “Known to God from eternity of old are all His works.
So there really are not any other possibilities and God just chooses one like picking out of a hat.
I'd say that multiple possibilities do exist, but only one conclusion.
If I could choose door A or door B there are at least three possibilities (provided I can't choose both). I could choose door A, door B, or no door.
But if I choose door B, and if there was an entity that knew which would become a reality, then door B was the only possible conclusion out of those three possibilities. My choosing of door B was predestined in the past if we suppose an omniscient being existed prior to my choosing.
The issue is never freedom of choice but the omniscience of God. We freely choose, but that does not mean those free choices are not predetermined.
My 2 cents, anyway.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
This Psalm 139 shows God as our origin, our creator, and His love is for His people who praise Him. v14
God did make man from the dust of the earth... v15
And in God's book were written all of your days before you existed. v16
And God's thought towards us, here, are precious, meaning He loves His people with a great love. v17
His people will remain with Him forever v18
13 For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.
17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand;
When I awake, I am still with You.
God did make man from the dust of the earth... v15
And in God's book were written all of your days before you existed. v16
And God's thought towards us, here, are precious, meaning He loves His people with a great love. v17
His people will remain with Him forever v18
13 For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.
17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand;
When I awake, I am still with You.
All Calvinists, unless they are Hyper, hold that the offer to get saved is legit, but that only the Elect shall receive it!
God ordained/decreed that the lost will end up in lake of Fire as their final judgement is not same thing as saying he is the one that forced/caused them to get there!
Exactly. My biggest issue with this contingent view Molinist view of the future is that it isn't truly omniscient. It says God knows what could be while the classical belief is that, not only does God know what could be, but what will actually be.
That was a tough pill to swallow in undergraduate philosophy for me.
The question is if God determines all things directly, or does He also factors in and allows/permits for our decisions and responses?
Yes, it does. Look at it this way: If God revealed prior that next Saturday you're going to eat a sandwich. In a way, you have a choice. You can choose to have a sandwich on that day or not. However, with one choice (the choice to have a sandwich), you would confirm God's omniscience. With the choice not to have a sandwich, God's omniscience is disproved.
Now, of course, this is where objections would arise that it would be absurd to think our choice along dictates the reality of God's omniscience....and this would be correct. Something would happen, that would result in you having a sandwich on Sunday—whether it's because everything else is closed, you have a hankering for a tuna sandwich, or you were trapped in a sandwich shop.
I often use Schrodinger's cat as why evangelism and good choices are still necessary in a determined world.
It depends on how you define "directly" and "allow" or "permit". I view permission and allowance as action by negation—especially since one can get to an intended result by action or inaction.
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