Calvinism : Questions

[JonC]

I cannot deny scripture that no evil comes from God.


If you believe that there is an example of God exhibiting evil you should probably reinterpret that scripture in line with holding on to God's attributes and refigure.

Scripture is sufficient. I never claimed otherwise.

However, we humans reason the meaning of scripture with logic.

As for your omniscience must = predestination your logic fails to account for that evil happens.

1) Necessarily God has fore determined everything that will happen
2) God has determined X
3) Therefore it is necessary that X will happen

X = Evil

Again, I cannot deny scripture that no evil comes from God, therefore God did not determine it even though He is Omniscient. Thus, His knowledge must be greater than the finite theological box you attempt to put it in.

Where did you get the idea I thought evil came from God?

I am saying God is omniscient and everything is predestined to happen as God knows it will happen.

Nothing surprises God.

Scripture tells us that God has predestined evil events - not that they should occur but that in occurring they are within God's predetermined plan.

We agree that God does not cause evil. We disagree in that I accept scripture that evil events occur within God's predetermined plan (Acts 2-3 are good examples) while you do not.

 

[LaGrange]

Craig, Kenneth Keathley along with the philosophical question of the Problem of Evil exposing Hard Determinism to unavoidably lead to Theological Fatalism have all been an influence on my soteriological position which maintains Human Volition throughout the scriptures within the values of Divine Foreknowledge .

Hi Ben,
Of course, this has always been my position too but I’m trying to understand the Calvinist Position correctly. It’s my understanding that Calvinists believe that because God Foreknows something is going to happen God caused it to happen. At least God caused it to happen by not providing grace to those that are not one of the Elect. Am I right on that?

 

[Yeshua1]

Determining directly and guiding thru are irrelevant for an omniscient Creator (it is inherent in "Creator").

God does not directly determine all things that happen, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

Where did you get the idea I thought evil came from God?

I am saying God is omniscient and everything is predestined to happen as God knows it will happen.

Nothing surprises God.

Scripture tells us that God has predestined evil events - not that they should occur but that in occurring they are within God's predetermined plan.

We agree that God does not cause evil. We disagree in that I accept scripture that evil events occur within God's predetermined plan (Acts 2-3 are good examples) while you do not.

The Fall and the Cross were both in the plans of God....

 

[JonC]

God does not directly determine all things that happen, correct?

I believe God does in that God is omniscient and Creator. If God is Creator and knew before Creation all things then yes, He has determined all things that happen. But this does not mean God is the Author of evil (we are responsible for our sins, but God was not ignorant of our sins prior to Creation).

 

[JonC]

I cannot deny scripture that no evil comes from God.


If you believe that there is an example of God exhibiting evil you should probably reinterpret that scripture in line with holding on to God's attributes and refigure.

Scripture is sufficient. I never claimed otherwise.

However, we humans reason the meaning of scripture with logic.

As for your omniscience must = predestination your logic fails to account for that evil happens.

1) Necessarily God has fore determined everything that will happen
2) God has determined X
3) Therefore it is necessary that X will happen

X = Evil

Again, I cannot deny scripture that no evil comes from God, therefore God did not determine it even though He is Omniscient. Thus, His knowledge must be greater than the finite theological box you attempt to put it in.

I do not think I am understanding your argument.

I am saying that if God knew Judas would betray Jesus then Jesus' betrayal of Judas was predestined. There is no way of getting around that.

Omniscience DOES necessitate that everything is predestined. This includes all evil that happens. Adam could have not sinned, but at the same time he was predestined to sin. The Jews could have refrained from handing Jesus over to be killed, but at the same time they were predestined to hand Him over to the hands of wicked men.

If God is omniscient then everything is predetermined to occur as God knew, before Creation, that it would occur.

You are incorrect in thinking that this does not apply to evil. God is not ignorant of our sin.

God did not have to determine it for it to be predestined. But God did, in fact, determine that evil would occur by the act of Creation.



Are you advocating open theology?

 

[Benjamin]

God did not have to determine it for it to be predestined. But God did, in fact, determine that evil would occur by the act of Creation.

Are you advocating open theology?

First, I am very familiar with the Determinists' Classical Theology position that God foreknows all things therefore He must have determined all things. I would argue that you can't have it (evil from God) both ways, "determinism" as both true and not true is simply logically impossible and I'm sure we could go several rounds per your explanations of Compatibilism. 2nd, I would argue as I mentioned that the Determinists' Classical Theology position tries to put Divine foreknowledge into a finite box and that this ends up logically denying or sacrificing the Divine attributes of Omnibenevolence and the Omnipotent ability of God's knowledge all to support this systematic theological position whereas my position would maintain these attributes along with the Human Volition that God blessed all men with in creation. Third, I would argue the fallacy of your begging the question on DFK to support your position. AND 4th, sorry, but I really don't time to go down this old road and especially not here.

Are you advocating open theology?

No, are you advocating Theological Fatalism?

 

[JonC]

First, I am very familiar ...

That may be, but you are confusing terms. Are you also familiar with Edward's works?

If God knows everything that will occur then everything is by that very knowledge predetermined to occur and transpire exactly as God has known from the foundation of the Earth it would.

Everything is predestined OR God is ignorant of future contingent events. There is no "but". There is no "or". That is simple. That is fact. And that is my position.

I do not care if people say God separately predestined things. That does not matter. That is meaningless. IF God is omniscient then every is predestined to occur as God knew it would occur prior to Creation. And knowing the outcome (still based only on omniscience) those events were made certain by the very act of creation.

What, in your opinion, has occurred differently than God knew from the beginning it would occur?

 

[Benjamin]

If God knows everything that will occur then everything is by that very knowledge predetermined to occur and transpire exactly as God has known from the foundation of the Earth it would.

Everything is predestined OR God is ignorant of future contingent events. There is no "but". There is no "or". That is simple. That is fact. And that is my position.

You are merely begging the question with a false dilemma here as I predicted. But like I said, this is a long road that I don't have the time or for that matter the desire to down here whether you want to believe I am confusing terms or not.

Third, I would argue the fallacy of your begging the question on DFK to support your position. AND 4th, sorry, but I really don't time to go down this old road and especially not here.

 

[JonC]

You are merely begging the question with a false dilemma here as I predicted. But like I said, this is a long road that I don't have the time or for that matter the desire to down here whether you want to believe I am confusing terms or not.

No. I am saying if the future is set to occur only in one way - as God knows it will - then it is set. If not then it is not and Open Theism is correct.

There is no in-between on this one. Either everything is predestined to happen as God knew it would or it is not.

 

[Benjamin]

Hi Ben,
Of course, this has always been my position too but I’m trying to understand the Calvinist Position correctly.

I'll have to let the Calvinists answer that, because I would just tick them of and start a bunch of battles that I don't care to get into.

At least God caused it to happen by not providing grace to those that are not one of the Elect. Am I right on that?

I believe God provides grace according to His judgment upon His creatures who were divinely designed with the attributes of Human Volition just as He planned that He would from the beginning of creation.

Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

 

[Benjamin]

No. I am saying if the future is set to occur only in one way - as God knows it will - then it is set. If not then it is not and Open Theism is correct.

There is no in-between on this one. Either everything is predestined to happen as God knew it would or it is not.

You are merely begging the question with a false dilemma here as I predicted. But like I said, this is a long road that I don't have the time or for that matter the desire to down here whether you want to believe I am confusing terms or not.

If not then it is not and Open Theism is correct.

It appears it is you that are confusing terms. I guess you've never watched me debate against Open Theism but I do as strongly as I would against Determinist Theological Fatalism.

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe God does in that God is omniscient and Creator. If God is Creator and knew before Creation all things then yes, He has determined all things that happen. But this does not mean God is the Author of evil (we are responsible for our sins, but God was not ignorant of our sins prior to Creation).

God both determines Himself and allows/permits others actions into his plans!

 

[Yeshua1]

No. I am saying if the future is set to occur only in one way - as God knows it will - then it is set. If not then it is not and Open Theism is correct.

There is no in-between on this one. Either everything is predestined to happen as God knew it would or it is not.

He foreknew does not mean though directly caused all things to happen!

 

[JonC]

It appears it is you that are confusing terms. I guess you've never watched me debate against Open Theism but I do as strongly as I would against Determinist Theological Fatalism.

No, I never have seen you debate Open Theism. But if you say you reject that view, that's good enough for me.

Looking back through history, which events do you believe were not destined to occur as God knew they would?

What about future events? What type of things do not occur as God knows they will?