In Genesis 6:3, the Bible reports God as saying, "My spirit shall not always strive with man..." (KJV). Now, if Calvinism is true, why does God need to strive with anyone? Could he not simply irresistibly move them? This appears to be one of those instances, according to Calvinism, in which God pretended to have an interest in drawing man, and then got disappointed because no one responded to his make-believe calling.
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Nope. Try again
You did not demonstrate that your view is correct by telling me to try again, but neglected to respond to the argument I presented, which seems to be common among the Calvinists here, and only shows that they do not have an argument.
Saying, "Nope. Try again." is not an effective rebuttal to an argument; it demonstrates laziness.
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37818
Well-Known Member
Why do you not give the simple explanation in that case? I know what has became Calvinism is not true.
37818
Well-Known Member
Where and when was this for him? Inform the rest of us.
Luke 22:20 has often been denied, but never refued.
If God predestines whatsoever comes to pass, God does not strive with anyone or anything, everything just unfolds according to His will.
So all the verses, such as Genesis 6:3 simply demonstrate God does not predestine everything, but He allows people to make at there choice of life or death.
So all the verses, such as Genesis 6:3 simply demonstrate God does not predestine everything, but He allows people to make at there choice of life or death.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Correct. Man does not have “freewill” That is the second lie of Satan right after “thou shall not surely die”
Satan tells Eve she will be “like God” knowing good and evil. To know good and evil “like God” they would always choose the good rather than the evil.
Mankind has “human will” that is enslaved to sin (according to scripture) and acts according to that sin nature.
God must free the human will from its enslavement to sin before it can act to choose the good things of God, Christ and Him crucified.
peace to you
No, we are in essence...Balaam. God's will always supercedes our sinful will. God, in his predetermination, will give us parameters to live in and not allow us to go outside those parameters. If you want a different analogy, we are kept within our fenced in backyard space.
Read about Balaam and see how God did not allow Balaam to act as he wished. Ask yourself why God wouldn't let Balaam do what he wished to do.
If man had "free will" then why did God stand in Balaam's way? Why does God stand in others way?
Read Daniel 11 and see that things happen "at the appointed time." Read Habakkuk 1 and see God raising up the Babylonians.
Your question is no different than the question Paul utterly refutes in Romans 9.
*Romans 9:18-29*
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.”
@Guido Please define Calvinism for us Guido. What do you think Calvinism says that causes you to pick less than a sentence, in Genesis 6:3, and declare that "Calvinism is refuted?"
There has been 500 years since John Calvin lived. Do you believe that you have uncovered a part of a sentence in the Bible that totally refutes the 5 solas? If so, please refute the 5 solas from your partial sentence. I will wait for you to share your understanding.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Respectfully, I don't call what the Bible teaches about election, calling, predestination and so forth, "Calvinism"...
I call it the truth of Scripture about how and why God saves any of us.
To answer your question:
Based on what I understand of His word, God strove with men so that He can say that He is just, and the justifier of the ungodly;
Even in the face of what seems impossible to us as men:
To overcome our very natures, and to genuinely approach the Lord in repentance and humility, from the heart.
In other words, He commands men to repent even though, by our natures and stubborn pride, that's the last thing that we want to do ( John 3:19-20 ).
Reconciliation takes place with the Lord by the miracle of His grace...
Not because any of us ever wanted to.
Yes, if He chose to do so ( Romans 9:14-24 ).
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
According to the Bible ( specifically what we find in the "Old Testament" ), the Lord strove with men to absolve Himself of the very thing that you appear to be charging Him with...
"Playing a game of bait-and-switch", and not genuinely extending His hand towards men.
Please see Romans 1:18-32.
Guido, He is worthy of our worship whether or not we, in our corrupt hearts and minds, give Him the glory that He deserves.
He also reserves to Himself the prerogative to have mercy on some, and not have mercy on others.
That is the God of the Bible, and the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, etc.
The fact that Israel, as a nation, miserably failed despite the many times that the Lord graciously extended His hand towards them, is all on us, as a race...
And only proves what He says about us, as a whole:
" Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." ( Jeremiah 13:23 ).
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
No, all of mankind are stubborn, willing slaves to sin and darkened in our hearts and minds ( Romans 1, Romans 6, Ephesians 4 ).
Believers were also such, before the Lord opened our hearts.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
If free will is you being able to do pretty much what you are inclined to do then sure, you have free will. As a man, you do not have free will in the sense that you make decisions based on anything more than your inclinations. You are not an autonomous being. And in the end, after you have done all you can to the best of your ability to fulfill your own desires according to your own free will - you will do what was predestined.
If we truly have free will then we can choose to never sin again
And be successful at not ainning
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Robots? No.
Enslaved to sin, yes. Which is what I said. Human will, enslaved to sin, with no desire for the things of the Spirit unless/until God changes our nature and frees our will from sin.
peace to you