Calvinism Refuted with One Verse

[Silverhair]

The only point I was trying to make was that you don't seem to see the kind of persuasive arguing and convincing that we all use on each other as humans to convince each other of things where we know our free will is in operation. In the Bible the gospel is proclaimed and it seems like some believe and some don't, but it does not seem to be the result of the presentation or debating ability of the messenger. But you do have to hear the news and you do either accept or reject the news.

If it was not due to the presentation of the gospel message then why present it at all? I agree some believe and some do not but in that you see their free will. The only other reason would be that God picked out those in each group which brings us back to why the presentation at all?

So you do not think that Paul or Peter or John etc were persuasive in their presentation. They may not have been for some Acts 13:46 but must have been for others Acts 13:48. And what about Peter at Pentecost, not all trusted in Christ but many did. Was that not by their free will? You do not need the apostles or a modern preacher to say you have to use your free will to make a decision for there to be a free will decisions made.

 

[Silverhair]

Actually, meat puppets with sin pulling the strings. BUT GOD has chosen His elect to free from sin.

peace to you

But under your Calvinism the only determiner is God so He would have to be the one pulling the strings. I agree that God has chosen to save those that freely trust in His son.

 

[Silverhair]

Slaves to sin as expressly and specifically revealed in scripture.

peace to you

But even slaves can and do make free will choices. And lest we forget, the bible expects man to make real choices and to live with the consequence of those choices.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Note it is the person not God that either believes or does not believe.

So even though man loves the darkness that does not preclude him from being able to turn and trust in Christ Jesus.
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
And they can do this because respond to the gospel message.
Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Which results in ones salvation.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[canadyjd]

But under your Calvinism the only determiner is God so He would have to be the one pulling the strings. I agree that God has chosen to save those that freely trust in His son.

Please do not presume to tell me what I believe, especially since what you are saying is contrary to what I said.

Jesus said the one.who sins is a slave to sin… but if the Son sets you free you will be free indeed.

That lays a very specific foundation of our state BEFORE Jesus sets us free.

The slave of sin cannot freely trust in Christ because they are slaves and obey sin.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Please do not presume to tell me what I believe, especially since what you are saying is contrary to what I said.

Jesus said the one.who sins is a slave to sin… but if the Son sets you free you will be free indeed.

That lays a very specific foundation of our state BEFORE Jesus sets us free.

The slave of sin cannot freely trust in Christ because they are slaves and obey sin.

peace to you

You can hold to that narrow view but the bible does not. Actually the God expects man to make free will choices and holds them accountable for those choices. Yes man sins but you error when you disregard scripture the indicates that man must make a choice. So while you do not feel that man can make real choices even when a slave to sin the bible would disagree with you.

 

[canadyjd]

You can hold to that narrow view but the bible does not. Actually the God expects man to make free will choices and holds them accountable for those choices. Yes man sins but you error when you disregard scripture the indicates that man must make a choice. So while you do not feel that man can make real choices even when a slave to sin the bible would disagree with you.

My beliefs are not based of feelings. I believe what scripture says.

Jesus said the one who sins is the slave of sin. If the Son sets you free you are free indeed.

There is a reason Jesus used the analogy of slavery and it’s not that slaves exercise “free will” contrary to the Sin master. Just the opposite. The Son of God must set you free from sin BEFORE you exercise faith.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

My beliefs are not based of feelings. I believe what scripture says.

Jesus said the one who sins is the slave of sin. If the Son sets you free you are free indeed.

There is a reason Jesus used the analogy of slavery and it’s not that slaves exercise “free will” contrary to the Sin master. Just the opposite. The Son of God must set you free from sin BEFORE you exercise faith.

peace to you

But the only time one is set free is when they are in Christ which means they are saved and that only happens after they freely trust in the Son. Plus you have to answer to all the verses that say man is required to make choices / believe in Christ.

According to your logic man can not do that but the bible disagrees with you so I believe I will trust what the bible says.

 

[canadyjd]

But the only time one is set free is when they are in Christ which means they are saved and that only happens after they freely trust in the Son. Plus you have to answer to all the verses that say man is required to make choices / believe in Christ.

According to your logic man can not do that but the bible disagrees with you so I believe I will trust what the bible says.

Men/women do make choices all the time. When they are slaves to sin the choices they make reflect their slavery in sin. When the Son of God see them free from sin, the choices they make reflect the Truth that Christ has set them free from sin.

Mankind cannot exercise faith in Christ until He sets them free from their slavery to sin. That the s the Truth revealed by Jesus when He said the one who sins is a slave of sin.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Men/women do make choices all the time. When they are slaves to sin the choices they make reflect their slavery in sin. When the Son of God see them free from sin, the choices they make reflect the Truth that Christ has set them free from sin.

Mankind cannot exercise faith in Christ until He sets them free from their slavery to sin. That the s the Truth revealed by Jesus when He said the one who sins is a slave of sin.

peace to you

So you just discount the scripture that you do not like. This must present you with quite a challenge in how to deal with a number of verses in the bible. Here are a few that come to mind.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Joh 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I realize that it will be hard for you to accept but the bible tells us that those salves to sin can respond to the gospel message and logic would say that God actually thinks that they can.

 

[canadyjd]

So you just discount the scripture that you do not like. This must present you with quite a challenge in how to deal with a number of verses in the bible. Here are a few that come to mind.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Joh 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I realize that it will be hard for you to accept but the bible tells us that those salves to sin can respond to the gospel message and logic would say that God actually thinks that they can.

And so we disagree

thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Guido’s are poor sheep herder’s who lived in the mountains of Italy. The name means guide.

 

[Silverhair]

And so we disagree

thanks for the conversation

peace to you

These verses John 8:34-36 speak [at a general level] of those that are trapped in habitual sin. The one whose lifestyle is characterized by repeated, continuous sin is a slave to sin. [John_8:34] That one is not free; sin has enslaved him. Those so enslaved can be set free through faith in Christ Jesus. [John_8:36] That habitual sin can be drugs or the desire for money and power etc. The greater context of these verses [John's gospel] show us that Christ is speaking of the sin of unbelief of the Jews and their leadership.

When Jesus in John_8:36 says, "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed", He is referring to the freedom from the bondage of sin of unbelief and its consequences and that is only to be found through faith in Jesus and acceptance of His sacrifice.

If one chooses to remain in their unbelief then they can not be set free so logically faith is the required condition that must be met prior to being set free.

But once again you back away from any discussion that challenges your view.

 

[canadyjd]

….

I realize that it will be hard for you to accept but the bible tells us that those salves to sin can respond to the gospel message and logic would say that God actually thinks that they can.

Those slaves to sin will respond to the gospel AFTER they have freed from sin by Jesus.

If a slave is just like anyone else there is no reason for Jesus to use the analogy of slavery.

Logic would say slaves to sin must be freed from sin before they can respond to the gospel. Otherwise, there is no reason to use the analogy of slavery

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Just accept what John 8:34 says without adding all those words.

The one who sins is a slave to sin.

Very plain and simple. The statement includes everyone without exception. No reason to limit it to continuous habitual sin like drug addicts or any other specific sin.

In the same way, the statement, if the Son sets you free you will be free indeed is very plain and simple.

The slave of sin must be set free from sin before they can act contrary to the sin that controls them.

This is the only logical reason that Jesus used the analogy of slavery.

Peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Just accept what John 8:34 says without adding all those words.

The one who sins is a slave to sin.

Very plain and simple. The statement includes everyone without exception. No reason to limit it to continuous habitual sin like drug addicts or any other specific sin.

In the same way, the statement, if the Son sets you free you will be free indeed is very plain and simple.

The slave of sin must be set free from sin before they can act contrary to the sin that controls them.

This is the only logical reason that Jesus used the analogy of slavery.

Peace to you

Yes I know that people sin, just look around us, but you have read into the text what is not there. You are ignoring the rest of scripture that shows that all men have the ability to turn and trust in Christ Jesus. You only have to go back two verses to see that Christ is referring to habitual sin.

But the question you have to deal with is how is one set free, what does the bible tell us. As I pointed out in post #49 it is through personal faith. God's desire is the salvation of all men and will save those that freely believe in His son.

I am not questioning that men sin and some are actually slaves to sin as I pointed out. What I am questioning is your implied assertion that man has no ability to turn to Christ in faith. That man has no free will with which to do so.

The gospel presentation itself indicates man's free will as does the Holy Spirits conviction of man.

Yes I agree there was a logical reason that Jesus used the analogy of slavery and the context of John's letter shows us what it was. The Jews and their leadership were in bondage to the sin of unbelief despite the clear evidence of who Jesus was. For them to be set free from that bondage they would have to change their mind as to who Jesus was. They knew the evidence now they would just have to accept it as the truth.

 

[canadyjd]

……

I am not questioning that men sin and some are actually slaves to sin…..
…….
What I am questioning is your implied assertion that man has no ability to turn to Christ in faith. That man has no free will with which to do so…….

First, Jesus did not say, “SOME. who sin are slaves to sin.” Jesus is saying that every single person that sins is a slave to sin.

Amazing that you accuse me of reading things into the text and are completely unaware of your own, literally, changing the words of the passage to fit your argument.

Second.. I did not “imply” mankind has no ability to turn to Christ (without God’s intervention in their lives). I have stated it plainly as a central biblical truth.

Thirdly: Mankind has human will that is enslaved to sin. I believe it because scripture teaches it.

peace to you

 

[David Kent]

These verses John 8:34-36 speak [at a general level] of those that are trapped in habitual sin. The one whose lifestyle is characterized by repeated, continuous sin is a slave to sin. [John_8:34] That one is not free; sin has enslaved him. Those so enslaved can be set free through faith in Christ Jesus. [John_8:36] That habitual sin can be drugs or the desire for money and power etc. The greater context of these verses [John's gospel] show us that Christ is speaking of the sin of unbelief of the Jews and their leadership.

When Jesus in John_8:36 says, "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed", He is referring to the freedom from the bondage of sin of unbelief and its consequences and that is only to be found through faith in Jesus and acceptance of His sacrifice.

If one chooses to remain in their unbelief then they can not be set free so logically faith is the required condition that must be met prior to being set free.

But once again you back away from any discussion that challenges your view.

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

JOHN 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[atpollard]

let me ask it this way -

If God predestines everything
Then man does NOT have free will

Would that be a correct statement?

Logically, yes.
Theologically, no.

It is one of several paradoxes.

Is God OMNIPOTENT and OMNISCIENT? (Can God DO and KNOW EVERYTHING).

If so, then God already KNOWS everything that will happen (irrespective of its cause) before it happens … God knew this before He created ANYTHING.

The CAUSE of everything must have been set before ANYTHING was created (since the RESULT was already known with certainty).

This CAUSE must either be INTERNAL to God Himself (God causes everything) or EXTERNAL to God (a second “uncaused cause” … another ‘god’ … Dualism).

Since there is ONLY ONE GOD … God must be the cause of all that happens.

(So IS GOD OMNI- or not? Is God the SOURCE or not? Does God CAUSE ALL or not?) … they are inseparably linked.

 

[atpollard]

But is it not the Calvinist God that makes all of mankind stubborn, willing slaves to sin and darkened in our hearts and minds? So we see the Calvinist God works against Himself.

Biblically, isn’t that the ‘god of this world’ that does that?

[2Co 4:3-4 NASB] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

[Silverhair]

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

JOHN 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

That all men sin and fall short of the glory of God is self evident. We just have to look around to see the fruit of man's sin.

And I agree with John 6:44 but you should include John 6:45
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT BY GOD.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

And we know that men are taught of God via the gospel message
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,...
Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

And that salvation is available to all men because Christ tells us so
Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

The truth of free will is found all through scripture.