Calvinism Refuted with One Verse

[Silverhair]

First, Jesus did not say, “SOME. who sin are slaves to sin.” Jesus is saying that every single person that sins is a slave to sin.

Amazing that you accuse me of reading things into the text and are completely unaware of your own, literally, changing the words of the passage to fit your argument.

Second.. I did not “imply” mankind has no ability to turn to Christ (without God’s intervention in their lives). I have stated it plainly as a central biblical truth.

Thirdly: Mankind has human will that is enslaved to sin. I believe it because scripture teaches it.

peace to you

First, Jesus said "whoever G3956 commits G4160 (G5723) sin G266 is G2076 (G5748) a slave G1401 of sin G266."

G5723

Tense-Present See [G5774]
Voice-Active See [G5784]
Mood -Participle See [G5796]

present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. The action is Progressive (Continuous)

What I said “I am not questioning that men sin and some are actually slaves to sin as I pointed out.” is born out by the context which you seem to have ignored, see verse John 8:34 which shows that it was habitual sin that Christ was referring to which is what I had said in the first comment of my post. “You only have to go back two verses to see that Christ is referring to habitual sin.”

Second, I did not want you to accuse me of putting words in your mouth. But since you have clearly stated it here I will point out that the bible disagrees with you. While we are convicted by the Holy Spirit it is still man that has to make the decision to trust or reject Christ. Ephesians 1:13, Romans 10:9-10 & John 3:36 bear this out.

Third, Yes some men are enslaved to their habitual sin and all men do sin even those that are saved. But what you continue to overlook is that God expects man to make real free will choices and has given them the ability to do so.

Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord GOD. "Therefore turn and live!"
"Therefore turn H7725 (H8685) and live H2421 (H8798)!" NKJ +TVM

H8685

Stem -Hiphil See [H8818]
Mood -Imperative See [H8810]

H8818

Hiphil
a) Hiphil usually expresses the "causative" action of Qal-See [H8851]


Qal / Hiphil

He ate / he caused to eat, he fed
He came / he caused to come, he brought
He reigned / he made king, he crowned

The bible is clear that the Holy Spirit convicts all men of their sin John 16:8-9. Those that will turn and trust in Christ will be saved but not all will do that and thus will be lost. John 3:18

So while all men sin not all men are enslaved to sin as you posit.

 

[Silverhair]

Biblically, isn’t that the ‘god of this world’ that does that?

[2Co 4:3-4 NASB] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

As a non-Calvinist I can agree with your post.

But as a Calvinist you have to say that God is the one that has determined all that the god of this world does. The god of this world can do no more and no less that what the Calvinist version of God makes Him to do.

 

[kyredneck]

The god of this world can do no more and no less that what the Calvinist version of God makes Him to do.

I prefer to think of it as God playing Satan and the spirits 'like a banjo string'.

 

[atpollard]

The god of this world can do no more and no less that what the Calvinist version of God makes Him to do.

The story of Job suggests “permits him to do” is more accurate than “makes him to do” … Satan, like men in Romans 1:24, desires to act according to Satan’s nature; God permits and restrains such desires according to the plan of God’s will (Ephesians 1:11).

 

[kyredneck]

The story of Job suggests “permits him to do” is more accurate than “makes him to do” …

8 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil. Job 1

I imagine Satan, lying like a snake in the grass watching Job, God knowing he's been watching him, and the story unfolds from there.

 

[canadyjd]

….
So while all men sin not all men are enslaved to sin as you posit.

Actually, it was Jesus that said the one who sins is a slave to sin.

You acknowledge that all men sin, but you want to limit the “enslavement” to those in habitual sin.

Well, I will posit that every person on the planet lives in habitual sin, which is exactly the point Jesus is making. All of mankind is enslaved to sin.

The Son of God must set the person free from that enslavement before they are able to accept Him by faith.

That truth is the reason Jesus uses the alsoigy of slavery.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

I prefer to think of it as God playing Satan and the spirits 'like a banjo string'.

So you do not hold to Calvinism I take it. As a non-calvinist I have no problem with the view that God allows Satan to be the god of this world. But Satan only has limited power and control.

But that view is not available to the Calvinist as for them God has to determine all things that happen down to the moving of a molecule.

 

[Silverhair]

The story of Job suggests “permits him to do” is more accurate than “makes him to do” … Satan, like men in Romans 1:24, desires to act according to Satan’s nature; God permits and restrains such desires according to the plan of God’s will (Ephesians 1:11).

So your not a true Calvinist I would have to conclude. As I said to KY, as a non-calvinist I can trust what the bible says but for those that want to hold to the tulip/DoG that option is not open to them. For them God has to determine/control all things.

The bible does not agree with the Calvinist view but that is what their version of God has determined for them to believe.

 

[kyredneck]

Satan only has limited power and control.

PBs generally hold to 'overruling providence'.

"Calvinism espouses the idea that "God has from all eternity past, unchangeably and unalterably fixed whatsoever comes to pass..." Primitive Baptists believe that predestination has reference only to the final destiny of God's people, not to the events of daily life. Yes, God is a God of providence, but providence and predestination are not synonymous. (Note that the word predestinate appears in its various forms four times in the Bible and always refers to people, not events of time.)"

Primitive Baptists beliefs

Is Everything Predestined?

The Truth About the Biblical Act of Predestination.

 

[atpollard]

So your not a true Calvinist I would have to conclude. As I said to KY, as a non-calvinist I can trust what the bible says but for those that want to hold to the tulip/DoG that option is not open to them. For them God has to determine/control all things.

The bible does not agree with the Calvinist view but that is what their version of God has determined for them to believe.

Am I the only one that finds it interesting that your definition of "Calvinist" makes THIS "Particular Baptist" to be "not a Calvinist"?

For the record, I will quote from the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith (Chapter 3, Paragraph 1):

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.4

1 Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, Romans 9:18
2 James 1:13; 1 John 1:5
3 Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28; John 19:11
4 Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5

​

 

[Silverhair]

Am I the only one that finds it interesting that your definition of "Calvinist" makes THIS "Particular Baptist" to be "not a Calvinist"?

For the record, I will quote from the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith (Chapter 3, Paragraph 1):

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.4

1 Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, Romans 9:18
2 James 1:13; 1 John 1:5
3 Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28; John 19:11
4 Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5

​

That was not a definition of Calvinism, just an observation. This is what I had said "For them God has to determine/control all things" But thank you for the quote from the LBCF as it just confirms what I had said.


God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass

You had said "The story of Job suggests “permits him to do” is more accurate than “makes him to do” …"
but the LBCF does not allow for that idea unless you have a different definition for the words "decreed, unchangeably & all" So we see from your LBCF that for the Calvinist it is not "permit" it is "makes do".

I find it funny that those that hold to the WCF or the LBCF the TULIP/DoG can not seem to decide on what to call their view of theology. Calvinist, reformed, particular, moderate and seem to have different understandings of what the bible teaches.

So much easier to just trust what the bible says and forget all the man-made labels.

 

[Silverhair]

Actually, it was Jesus that said the one who sins is a slave to sin.

You acknowledge that all men sin, but you want to limit the “enslavement” to those in habitual sin.

Well, I will posit that every person on the planet lives in habitual sin, which is exactly the point Jesus is making. All of mankind is enslaved to sin.

John 8:34

Every one that committeth sin is the bondservant of sin (pas ho poiōn tēn hamartian doulos estin ̣tēs hamartiaš). Note the use of poiōn (present active participle, continuous habit or practice), not poiēsas (aorist active participle for single act), precisely as in 1Jn_3:4-8. Note also Joh_3:21 for ho poiōn tēn alētheian (the one who practises the truth). Word Pictures in the New Testament (A. T. Robertson)


John 8:34

Whosoever committeth (πᾶς ὁ ποιῶν)
Rev., more correctly, every one that committeth.
Sin (τὴν ἁμαρτίαν)

The definite article, the sin, shows that Jesus does not mean merely a simple act, but a life of sin. Compare 1Jo_3:4-8, and doeth the truth (Joh_3:21); doeth the righteousness (1Jo_2:29). Vincent's Word Studies

John 8:34

34.] ποιῶν τὴν ἁμαρτ., not = ἁμαρτάνων, for that all do; but = ἐργαζόμενος τὴν ἀνομίαν, Mat_7:23. It implies living in the practice of sin,—doing sin, as a habit: see reff. The mere moral sentiment of which this is the spiritual expression, was common among the Greek and Roman philosophers. See Wetstein: also Rom_6:12; 2Pe_2:19. Henry Alford's The Greek Testament


John 8:34

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever [or 'Everyone that' pas (G3956) ho (G3588)] committeth sin - that is to say, 'liveth in the commission of it' (compare 1Jn_3:8; Mat_7:23), Jamieson, Fausset, Brown

The context John 8:34-36 does not support your stated view as the comments above show. All men will sin but not all men are habitual sinners as you put forward. An opinion should be formed from the text says not from what you would like the text to say.

The Son of God must set the person free from that enslavement before they are able to accept Him by faith.

That truth is the reason Jesus uses the alsoigy of slavery.

peace to you

You have over stated your case when you say Christ has to set people free before they can believe. Once again the bible does not support your view. It seems that you do not want to trust scripture but rather what some men tell you the bible says.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Gal 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal_3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Heb_11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Because people have trusted in Him, Christ sets them free from the bondage of sin. Which is what we are told in scripture:
Joh 8:36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Now if you think my view is wrong then show me from scripture where I am wrong.

 

[atpollard]

That was not a definition of Calvinism, just an observation. This is what I had said "For them God has to determine/control all things" But thank you for the quote from the LBCF as it just confirms what I had said.


God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass

You had said "The story of Job suggests “permits him to do” is more accurate than “makes him to do” …"
but the LBCF does not allow for that idea unless you have a different definition for the words "decreed, unchangeably & all" So we see from your LBCF that for the Calvinist it is not "permit" it is "makes do".

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass

• Isaiah 46:10 [NKJV] 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times [things] that are not [yet] done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'
• Ephesians 1:11 [NKJV] 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
• Hebrews 6:17 [NKJV] 17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed [it] by an oath,
• Romans 9:15, 18 [NKJV] 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." ... 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;3

• James 1:13 [NKJV] 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
• 1 John 1:5 [NKJV] 5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
• Acts 4:27-28 [NKJV] 27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 "to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.
• John 19:11 [NKJV] 11 Jesus answered, "You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."

... BOTH are true:

• God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass
• nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established

[The BIBLE says so.]

 

[atpollard]

The context John 8:34-36 does not support your stated view as the comments above show. All men will sin but not all men are habitual sinners as you put forward. An opinion should be formed from the text says not from what you would like the text to say.

Just a quick question.

• Are any men "not a habitual sinner" who are living apart from God and rejecting His Son?
• (Can there be a 'righteous' atheist, Buddhist, unsaved whatever?)
• (Does not 'habitually sinning' require being changed - salvation?)

[all different ways to word the same question in hopes of communicating the intent of what I want to know rather than waste time arguing semantics]

 

[David Kent]

That all men sin and fall short of the glory of God is self evident. We just have to look around to see the fruit of man's sin.

And I agree with John 6:44 but you should include John 6:45
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT BY GOD.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

And we know that men are taught of God via the gospel message
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,...
Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

And that salvation is available to all men because Christ tells us so
Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

The truth of free will is found all through scripture.

I don't doubt that the gospel comes through the foolisness of preaching. And many of the great preachers of the past and reformers were what you call Calvinists. I personally don't call anyone a Calvinist as he insisted on being buried in an unmarked grave so he couldn't be honoured. In France during the reformation there you were either a catholic or a Calvinist. When the reformation ca e to Germany you were either a Lutheran or a Catholic. In Switzerland you had a choice of Calvin or Zwingli.

In England the first baptists in the county where some of my ancestors came from the first baptists were particular baptists. The first American Christians, the puritans were Calvinists. The Scottish reformers under Knox were Presbyterian Calvinists.

I would think that the Waldensians , Hussites, Lollards, etc all believed the Doctrines of Grace as they looked back to the evangelical teachings of Augustine.

 

[David Kent]

Just a quick question.

• Are any men "not a habitual sinner" who are living apart from God and rejecting His Son?
• (Can there be a 'righteous' atheist, Buddhist, unsaved whatever?)
• (Does not 'habitually sinning' require being changed - salvation?)

[all different ways to word the same question in hopes of communicating the intent of what I want to know rather than waste time arguing semantics]

THERE IS NONE THAT IS RIGHTEOUS, NO NOT ONE.

 

[David Kent]

You can hold to that narrow view but the bible does not. Actually the God expects man to make free will choices and holds them accountable for those choices. Yes man sins but you error when you disregard scripture the indicates that man must make a choice. So while you do not feel that man can make real choices even when a slave to sin the bible would disagree with you.

Throughout the old testament God uses kings to punish Israel, but them punished them.

 

[canadyjd]

John 8:34

Every one that committeth sin is the bondservant of sin (pas ho poiōn tēn hamartian doulos estin ̣tēs hamartiaš). Note the use of poiōn (present active participle, continuous habit or practice), not poiēsas (aorist active participle for single act), precisely as in 1Jn_3:4-8. Note also Joh_3:21 for ho poiōn tēn alētheian (the one who practises the truth). Word Pictures in the New Testament (A. T. Robertson)


John 8:34

Whosoever committeth (πᾶς ὁ ποιῶν)
Rev., more correctly, every one that committeth.
Sin (τὴν ἁμαρτίαν)

The definite article, the sin, shows that Jesus does not mean merely a simple act, but a life of sin. Compare 1Jo_3:4-8, and doeth the truth (Joh_3:21); doeth the righteousness (1Jo_2:29). Vincent's Word Studies

John 8:34

34.] ποιῶν τὴν ἁμαρτ., not = ἁμαρτάνων, for that all do; but = ἐργαζόμενος τὴν ἀνομίαν, Mat_7:23. It implies living in the practice of sin,—doing sin, as a habit: see reff. The mere moral sentiment of which this is the spiritual expression, was common among the Greek and Roman philosophers. See Wetstein: also Rom_6:12; 2Pe_2:19. Henry Alford's The Greek Testament


John 8:34

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever [or 'Everyone that' pas (G3956) ho (G3588)] committeth sin - that is to say, 'liveth in the commission of it' (compare 1Jn_3:8; Mat_7:23), Jamieson, Fausset, Brown

The context John 8:34-36 does not support your stated view as the comments above show. All men will sin but not all men are habitual sinners as you put forward. An opinion should be formed from the text says not from what you would like the text to say.



You have over stated your case when you say Christ has to set people free before they can believe. Once again the bible does not support your view. It seems that you do not want to trust scripture but rather what some men tell you the bible says.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Gal 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal_3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Heb_11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Because people have trusted in Him, Christ sets them free from the bondage of sin. Which is what we are told in scripture:
Joh 8:36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Now if you think my view is wrong then show me from scripture where I am wrong.

Are you claiming Jesus said, “some who sin are slaves to sin?”

You admit all have sinned. Are you claiming only some people are “habitual” sinners?

I believe you are minimizing the effective control sin has on each and every person on the planet. That is the reason Jesus used the analogy of slavery. Your view undermines the very foundation of John 8:34 and the reason Jesus used the analogy of slavery.

While I appreciate the offer to demonstrate from scripture how you are wrong, I know from experience all efforts will be rejected, mocked, dismissed as unbiblical, much as you have done with John 8:34, with the very words of our Lord Jesus.

Therefore, I politely decline your offer.

peace to you

 

[37818]

. . . but them punished them.

Whom are the two "them"?

 

[atpollard]

THERE IS NONE THAT IS RIGHTEOUS, NO NOT ONE.

However, that was EXACTLY the sort of SEMANTICS that I hoped to avoid.

Granted there are none righteous, but are all men "habitual sinners"?