Calvinism Refuted with One Verse

[Silverhair]

Just a quick question.

• Are any men "not a habitual sinner" who are living apart from God and rejecting His Son?
• (Can there be a 'righteous' atheist, Buddhist, unsaved whatever?)
• (Does not 'habitually sinning' require being changed - salvation?)

[all different ways to word the same question in hopes of communicating the intent of what I want to know rather than waste time arguing semantics]

Did you actually read what I post, I am beginning to doubt it. What did they say? All men sin but not all are habitual sinners. You are just ignoring what the text says as it does not fit your theology.

Salvation requires change whether one is a habitual sinner or not. To deny that all men sin is foolish but to claim that all men live in habitual sin is just as foolish.

But we are arguing semantics. You do not want to accept what the text actually tells us. I have taken the time to show you what the Greek and Hebrew say but you just ignore it. Why is that?

 

[canadyjd]

….I have taken the time to show you what the Greek and Hebrew say but you just ignore it. Why is that?

1. Because you have demonstrated a limited understanding of biblical Greek and Biblical Hebrew
2. Because you have demonstrated a willingness to ignore context when presenting your analysis of biblical Greek and Biblical Hebrew-

Why did Jesus use the analogy of slavery in John 8:34 if not to demonstrate every person on the planet is enslaved to sin and must be freed from the influence of sin by the Son?

By claiming John 8:34 only applies to some people, you also limit Jesus’s words about the Son setting people free from sin.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass

• Isaiah 46:10 [NKJV] 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times [things] that are not [yet] done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'
• Ephesians 1:11 [NKJV] 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
• Hebrews 6:17 [NKJV] 17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed [it] by an oath,
• Romans 9:15, 18 [NKJV] 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." ... 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;3

• James 1:13 [NKJV] 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
• 1 John 1:5 [NKJV] 5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
• Acts 4:27-28 [NKJV] 27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 "to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.
• John 19:11 [NKJV] 11 Jesus answered, "You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."

... BOTH are true:

• God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass
• nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established

[The BIBLE says so.]

I have no problem with the text of the bible. But there is a vast difference between God saying He has a plan that will be worked out through His creation and your LBCF saying that "]God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass"

The verses you posted support God having a plan but do not support Him decreeing all things. That is something that you have to read into the text. Plus if God decrees all things as the LBCF states that leaves nothing out. All the good is decreed but also all the evil is decreed. Thus your LBCF and thus you have made God the ultimate author of evil and Satan becomes just a puppet like the rest of us.

Is there evil in this world, of course. Did God decree it, NO but He did give man and even angels a free will [see Satan and the rest of the fallen ones].

 

[atpollard]

Did you actually read what I post, I am beginning to doubt it. What did they say? All men sin but not all are habitual sinners. You are just ignoring what the text says as it does not fit your theology.

Salvation requires change whether one is a habitual sinner or not. To deny that all men sin is foolish but to claim that all men live in habitual sin is just as foolish.

But we are arguing semantics. You do not want to accept what the text actually tells us. I have taken the time to show you what the Greek and Hebrew say but you just ignore it. Why is that?

Thank you for the rude response.

The TEXT does not tell me YOUR OPINION (exegesis) on whether it applied to "pre-salvation only" or "post-salvation only" or to "both pre and post salvation" where all men are not "habitual sinners".

 

[Silverhair]

1. Because you have demonstrated a limited understanding of biblical Greek and Biblical Hebrew
2. Because you have demonstrated a willingness to ignore context when presenting your analysis of biblical Greek and Biblical Hebrew-

Why did Jesus use the analogy of slavery in John 8:34 if not to demonstrate every person on the planet is enslaved to sin and must be freed from the influence of sin by the Son?

By claiming John 8:34 only applies to some people, you also limit Jesus’s words about the Son setting people free from sin.

peace to you

Strange comment from you. What I posted re the Greek and Hebrew is supported by Greek and Hebrew scholars so you must think you are more knowledgeable than them. The Greek is clear that those that are habitual sinners are slaves the their habitual sins.
"The definite article, the sin, shows that Jesus does not mean merely a simple act, but a life of sin." VWS Jn 8:34

You can disagree with me but why do you disagree with Greek scholars?

 

[atpollard]

Strange comment from you. What I posted re the Greek and Hebrew is supported by Greek and Hebrew scholars so you must think you are more knowledgeable than them. The Greek is clear that those that are habitual sinners are slaves the their habitual sins.
"The definite article, the sin, shows that Jesus does not mean merely a simple act, but a life of sin." VWS Jn 8:34

You can disagree with me but why do you disagree with Greek scholars?

Ephesians 2:1-3 [KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.​

... According to Ephesians 2 (above), were we "habitual sinners" or did we merely commit "a simple act" of sin?

• (even IF your Greek is strong, your extended CONCLUSION from it seems contra-Biblical)

 

[Silverhair]

I don't doubt that the gospel comes through the foolisness of preaching. And many of the great preachers of the past and reformers were what you call Calvinists. I personally don't call anyone a Calvinist as he insisted on being buried in an unmarked grave so he couldn't be honoured. In France during the reformation there you were either a catholic or a Calvinist. When the reformation ca e to Germany you were either a Lutheran or a Catholic. In Switzerland you had a choice of Calvin or Zwingli.

In England the first baptists in the county where some of my ancestors came from the first baptists were particular baptists. The first American Christians, the puritans were Calvinists. The Scottish reformers under Knox were Presbyterian Calvinists.

I would think that the Waldensians , Hussites, Lollards, etc all believed the Doctrines of Grace as they looked back to the evangelical teachings of Augustine.

If one only looked back to the teachings of Augustine, who brought pagan teachings of his earlier years into the church, then I can understand where their errors came from. We should be looking to the apostles for the truth not to some man 325+ years removed from the truth.

 

[Silverhair]

Throughout the old testament God uses kings to punish Israel, but them punished them.

Yes I know, it's in the bible. But what are you trying point out?

 

[canadyjd]

Strange comment from you. What I posted re the Greek and Hebrew is supported by Greek and Hebrew scholars so you must think you are more knowledgeable than them. The Greek is clear that those that are habitual sinners are slaves the their habitual sins.
"The definite article, the sin, shows that Jesus does not mean merely a simple act, but a life of sin." VWS Jn 8:34

You can disagree with me but why do you disagree with Greek scholars?

Again, Jesus said the one who sins is a slave to sin. You have acknowledged all have sinned.

You contend the text means those that sin habitually are slaves to sin, thus limiting the scope of the people Jesus is referring to if you don’t acknowledge all men sin in a habitual way, which is exactly what you have stated.

The question is… was Jesus intending to include ever person that has ever lived when He said, “the one that sins is a slave to sin”?

I maintain He intended to include everyone. That is the reason for the reference to slavery.

Additionally, if Jesus meant that only some people that sin are slaves to sin, you must also limit His statement “if the Son sets you free you are free indeed”, to those that habitually sin.

That makes the statement by Jesus in John 8:34 practically useless as people will respond as the Pharisees did, “I have never been enslaved”.

You are denying the pervasive effect of sin in controlling a person’s life and limiting Jesus’s concern for sinful actions to “habitual” sin.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Are you claiming Jesus said, “some who sin are slaves to sin?”

You admit all have sinned. Are you claiming only some people are “habitual” sinners?

I believe you are minimizing the effective control sin has on each and every person on the planet. That is the reason Jesus used the analogy of slavery. Your view undermines the very foundation of John 8:34 and the reason Jesus used the analogy of slavery.

While I appreciate the offer to demonstrate from scripture how you are wrong, I know from experience all efforts will be rejected, mocked, dismissed as unbiblical, much as you have done with John 8:34, with the very words of our Lord Jesus.

Therefore, I politely decline your offer.

peace to you

What does the text of John 8:34 say? What have the Greek scholars that I have posted said? I am just going by the text.

This could simply be translated, "everyone who sins," but the Greek is more emphatic, using the participle ποιῶν (poiōn) in a construction with πᾶς (pas), a typical Johannine construction. Here repeated, continuous action is in view. The one whose lifestyle is characterized by repeated, continuous sin is a slave to sin. That one is not free; sin has enslaved him. To break free from this bondage requires outside (divine) intervention. NET

I on the other hand think you are overstating the case in saying that all men sin habitually. Do some men sin as a way of life, yes, but not all. That is the reality that we see in the world.

Christ was saying that if you allow sin to control your life through habitual sin then you are it's slave but if we have been set free through faith in Christ Jesus then it is no longer our master we are not it's slave.

I have shown you from scripture and from Greek scholars what John 8:34-36 is telling us but you have just rejected my comments but have failed to provide any biblical response to counter what I have posted. So it appears that you are the one that has rejected, mocked, dismissed as unbiblical, much as you have done with John 8:34 all that I have posted.

 

[canadyjd]

What does the text of John 8:34 say? What have the Greek scholars that I have posted said? I am just going by the text.

This could simply be translated, "everyone who sins," but the Greek is more emphatic, using the participle ποιῶν (poiōn) in a construction with πᾶς (pas), a typical Johannine construction. Here repeated, continuous action is in view. The one whose lifestyle is characterized by repeated, continuous sin is a slave to sin. That one is not free; sin has enslaved him. To break free from this bondage requires outside (divine) intervention. NET

I on the other hand think you are overstating the case in saying that all men sin habitually. Do some men sin as a way of life, yes, but not all. That is the reality that we see in the world.

Christ was saying that if you allow sin to control your life through habitual sin then you are it's slave but if we have been set free through faith in Christ Jesus then it is no longer our master we are not it's slave.

I have shown you from scripture and from Greek scholars what John 8:34-36 is telling us but you have just rejected my comments but have failed to provide any biblical response to counter what I have posted. So it appears that you are the one that has rejected, mocked, dismissed as unbiblical, much as you have done with John 8:34 all that I have posted.

Are you stating that only those people that habitually sin need to be freed from that sin by the Son?

peace to you

 

[MrW]

I’m unconcerned about free will, except I wish it did not exist. Then everyone would be saved.

I reject Calvinism/Reformed Theology because it’s exactly opposite of Scripture and I believe in Scripture alone. I don’t believe mere men over the living God. God is trustworthy and cannot lie. Men—not so.

 

[canadyjd]

@Silverhair, I will try again. Are you saying that Jesus was only speaking of those in habitual sin in John 8:34 and only those in habitual sin need to be “freed” from sin by the Son?

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Again, Jesus said the one who sins is a slave to sin. You have acknowledged all have sinned.

You contend the text means those that sin habitually are slaves to sin, thus limiting the scope of the people Jesus is referring to if you don’t acknowledge all men sin in a habitual way, which is exactly what you have stated.

The question is… was Jesus intending to include ever person that has ever lived when He said, “the one that sins is a slave to sin”?

I maintain He intended to include everyone. That is the reason for the reference to slavery.

Additionally, if Jesus meant that only some people that sin are slaves to sin, you must also limit His statement “if the Son sets you free you are free indeed”, to those that habitually sin.

That makes the statement by Jesus in John 8:34 practically useless as people will respond as the Pharisees did, “I have never been enslaved”.

You are denying the pervasive effect of sin in controlling a person’s life and limiting Jesus’s concern for sinful actions to “habitual” sin.

peace to you

"You contend the text means those that sin habitually are slaves to sin"
I do not contend that it says that, it is what the text says.
I have shown you in the Greek [# 61] and provided Greek scholars [#72] that support that view. Why you do not believe them is the real question.

"if Jesus meant that only some people that sin are slaves to sin, you must also limit His statement “if the Son sets you free you are free indeed”, to those that habitually sin."
Jesus said that those that sin habitually are slaves to sin, He did not say that others did not sin. We know that some of those that Christ was speaking of latter came to faith Act 2:14-41, Peter at Pentecost, where three thousand came to trust in Christ. So even though they were slaves to sin it did not preclude them turning and trusting in Christ.

Also, Christ telling people that were slaves to sin that they could be saved through faith in Him does not limit others coming to Him for salvation.
Mat 11:28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

I am not the one limiting the effects of sin but you are the one limiting the power of the gospel message. Agreed some people will continue in their habitual sin of unbelief but why do you assume that all will or even that those that do at one time will not latter change their view. You have made many assumptions with no justification for them.

 

[Silverhair]

Are you stating that only those people that habitually sin need to be freed from that sin by the Son?

peace to you

That's not what the post says but I can't control how you read things.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair, I will try again. Are you saying that Jesus was only speaking of those in habitual sin in John 8:34 and only those in habitual sin need to be “freed” from sin by the Son?

peace to you

Two questions there:
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
1] There may have been people there that were not in habitual sin but from the context He was addressing those that were.

2] only those in habitual sin need to be “freed” from sin by the Son?
The context does not support that idea. In John 3:36 Christ made a general statement that "...if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."

Anyone that comes to Christ in faith will be saved. Those that were in habitual sin as well as those that were not.

God does not limit those that can come to Him for salvation
Mat 11:28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

 

[Silverhair]

@canadyjd I will try again. Have you any support for your view regarding John 8:34. If you have why have you not provided it?

 

[canadyjd]

@canadyjd I will try again. Have you any support for your view regarding John 8:34. If you have why have you not provided it?

I do. Paul speaks in much the same language in Romans, specifically personifying sin as a master that controls the person.

I will continue to disagree with your belief that Jesus is not referring to all people in John 8:34. All people are habitual sinners.

We have both made our points. Thanks for the conversation. I’ll let others comment.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

I do. Paul speaks in much the same language in Romans, specifically personifying sin as a master that controls the person.

I will continue to disagree with your belief that Jesus is not referring to all people in John 8:34. All people are habitual sinners.

We have both made our points. Thanks for the conversation. I’ll let others comment.

peace to you

Yes I should think that we will disagree on many things but we may at times find agreement. Who knows.

As for John 8:34 it is not my belief that He is not referring to all people it is what the Greek text says.
All people are sinners but not all people are habitual sinners.

It would be better if you were more specific as to where you think Paul speaks to the issue in Romans.

 

[canadyjd]

Yes I should think that we will disagree on many things but we may at times find agreement. Who knows.

As for John 8:34 it is not my belief that He is not referring to all people it is what the Greek text says.
All people are sinners but not all people are habitual sinners.

It would be better if you were more specific as to where you think Paul speaks to the issue in Romans.

FTR, Jesus does not say all people are sinners but not all people are habitual sinners in John 8:34. Jesus said, “the one who sins is the slave of sin”.

You have made the case the text favors habitual sinners. The only logical conclusion, imo, is that when Jesus says “the one who sins is the slave to sin”, He is saying all are habitual sinners and all need to be freed from sin by the Son.

If my memory holds, Paul personified sin and death about Roman 5 and then goes into a lengthy discourse about that truth describing how the sin master controls a person for their lives and then delivers them to the death master and then ends at the end of chapter 7 with the statement “wretched man that I am (a term for a slave) “who can delver me from this body of death (this body that belongs to death), he then proclaims his thanks to our Lord Jesus Christ as the one that delivered us from sin and death.

Hope that helps

peace to you