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Calvinism, The fruit of scriptural truth pt3.

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Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Only the spiritual understand spiritual things. I agree here. But I disagree one is born again prior to being saved.

The difference is I believe that God draws men to Himself. Not that God recreates man so they can be saved but that God draws sinners to Himself. They hear not because they are changed but because the work of God drawing them prior to being reborn.

This is similar to Peter's confession. It was not of Peter but of God (it was revealed to Peter by the Spirit).
Jesus says 'those who are of God hear Him' the only logical thing this can be goes back to john 3 and being born again, as in v3 says

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

which there is not talking of entering but perceiving and that relates to understanding Christ is the Son of God, the promised Savior, the prophet
Moses tells them God will raise up, and if you do not listen to Him, God will cut you off from His people.
What the word 'see' means
John 3 (KJV) - There was a man of (blueletterbible.org)
G3708 - horaō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV) (blueletterbible.org)

and of course Christ then says flesh is flesh, meaning if all you are is flesh and dead and not spiritually alive your not going to see (perceive) the kingdom and Christ as the door of the sheep.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Jesus says 'those who are of God hear Him' the only logical thing this can be goes back to john 3 and being born again, as in v3 says

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

which there is not talking of entering but perceiving and that relates to understanding Christ is the Son of God, the promised Savior, the prophet
Moses tells them God will raise up, and if you do not listen to Him, God will cut you off from His people.
What the word 'see' means
John 3 (KJV) - There was a man of (blueletterbible.org)
G3708 - horaō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV) (blueletterbible.org)

and of course Christ then says flesh is flesh, meaning if all you are is flesh and dead and not spiritually alive your not going to see (perceive) the kingdom and Christ as the door of the sheep.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
I am also talking about perceiving, not entering.

I believe that God draws people to Himself. By this I mean God works in the hearts and minds of those who are being saved (Spurgeon attributed this to a divine persuasion, that God "tears down" our walls and gives us an understanding of the gospel that we would never derive without the Spirit).

So my order of salvation is that God draws men to Himself (I like Spurgeon's use of "persuasion" here, but I think it is more in that God gives us understanding...like Peter's confession which was revealed to Peter by the Spirit). There is a point of decision, but it is God working in us to repent and believe (or to call out on the Lord). Then, and only then, are we born again, recreated, saved.

I do not believe we are regenerated and then saved. I see this nowhere in Scripture. But at the same time I do not believe that we come to faith apart from the Spirit working in us.

Once God has reveled the truth of the gospel to a man, that man cannot help but believe. Say you do not believe bees sting, but then are stung by a bee, you cannot help but change your belief.

Men believe because God draws them. But we are not justified by faith alone. Faith without works is dead. Men must repent and believe. It is not enough just to accept that bees sting, we have to stop picking them up.
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
I am also talking about perceiving, not entering.

I believe that God draws people to Himself. By this I mean God works in the hearts and minds of those who are being saved (Spurgeon attributed this to a divine persuasion, that God "tears down" our walls and gives us an understanding of the gospel that we would never derive without the Spirit).

So my order of salvation is that God draws men to Himself (I like Spurgeon's use of "persuasion" here, but I think it is more in that God gives us understanding...like Peter's confession which was revealed to Peter by the Spirit). There is a point of decision, but it is God working in us to repent and believe (or to call out on the Lord). Then, and only then, are we born again, recreated, saved.

I do not believe we are regenerated and then saved. I see this nowhere in Scripture. But at the same time I do not believe that we come to faith apart from the Spirit working in us.

Once God has reveled the truth of the gospel to a man, that man cannot help but believe. Say you do not believe bees sting, but then are stung by a bee, you cannot help but change your belief.

Men believe because God draws them. But we are not justified by faith alone. Faith without works is dead. Men must repent and believe. It is not enough just to accept that bees sting, we have to stop picking them up.

it is of interest to note Paul knew what being born again meant, but he does not say that here, he uses 'sealed'
Simply it means to me Paul is not talking of being born again here at the end of the order of salvation. So logically it must come before being sealed.
Jesus even tells us do not marvel about being born again. It happens like wind according to God's will, not our will. Born of God first as a prerequisite requirement to the final sealing.
Born again gets little mention except in the letters of John after the gospels, and once by Peter. They refer to it as 'born of God', begotten again.
  1. Ephesians 1:13
    In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
    Ephesians 4:30
  2. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
 
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JonC

Moderator
Moderator
it is of interest to note Paul knew what being born again meant, but he does not say that here, he uses 'sealed'
Simply it means to me Paul is not talking of being born again here at the end of the order of salvation. So logically it must come before being sealed.
Jesus even tells us do not marvel about being born again. It happens like wind according to God's will, not our will. Born of God first as a prerequisite requirement to the final sealing.
Born again gets little mention except in the letters of John after the gospels, and once by Peter. They refer to it as 'born of God', begotten again.
  1. Ephesians 1:13
    In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
    Ephesians 4:30
  2. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

As far as Paul's words, I do not believe that he was providing an order of salvation. We have to remember that Paul is speaking to Christians and not trying to break down things into a scientific formula (or theological formula). People, not Scripture, makes salvation much more complicated than is needed.

You hear the Word, you believe the word and having believed you are sealed with the Holy Spirit. I disagree that salvation comes before being sealed (or that salvation comes after being sealed).

We have had these discussions before on this forum, but it has been awhile. To bring back a summary of my belief - I believe that a person who repents and believes is saved. Saved incorporates or means being born again, being sealed by the Spirit, believing and repenting....everything involved. But I do not believe it is appropriate to break this down into an order. In fact, I do not believe an order really exists.
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
As far as Paul's words, I do not believe that he was providing an order of salvation. We have to remember that Paul is speaking to Christians and not trying to break down things into a scientific formula (or theological formula). People, not Scripture, makes salvation much more complicated than is needed.

You hear the Word, you believe the word and having believed you are sealed with the Holy Spirit. I disagree that salvation comes before being sealed (or that salvation comes after being sealed).

We have had these discussions before on this forum, but it has been awhile. To bring back a summary of my belief - I believe that a person who repents and believes is saved. Saved incorporates or means being born again, being sealed by the Spirit, believing and repenting....everything involved. But I do not believe it is appropriate to break this down into an order. In fact, I do not believe an order really exists.
yes, salvation does not come before sealing as we are saved after we follow what happens also described in Romans 10.
Neither does being born again mean at that moment the person is saved, before they believe in their heart God raised Christ from the dead.
What born again does is change our hearts to a new one that God then can teach and bring to Christ. The old heart is dead to Christ and God, they do not work with that. Like Christ says in John 8, the old heart is unable to listen to His words. Such a person will not be granted to believe.

IT is true though that all born again will be taught by the Holy Spirit and believe. Their is no instantaneous born again suddenly saved thing taking place.
The emotional response felt after believing comes from the Holy Spirit sealing us in Him.

God gives us a new inner heart is what this NC is all about, so that we can know them.

John 6, shows we must be teachable, that is what being born of God gives us. The 'all' here is not all men, it is all of those who are taught by God, they all come to Christ.

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me

The above is in opposite contrast to john 8 here, these people are unteachable.
43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
 
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utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
We have declared several things to keep in mind from threads 1 and 2;

The consistent Calvinistic apologetic is therefore presuppositional, reasoning from the Scriptures, not evidential, or reasoning to the Scriptures.

What man needs is spiritual life, enablement and perception [regeneration], not merely information.

The primary influence of the Calvinistic tradition has been theological. As a comprehensive scriptural system, it has affected every area of theology. In particular, the following:

• The whole Calvinistic system is nothing more or less than a systemization of scriptural truth.

The Institutes of the Christian Religion formed the essence or basis of all subsequent consistent systematic theologies.

• Calvin brought the doctrines of predestination and election into the realm of practical Christian experience, “giving significance to the common man.”

Every Reformed and Evangelical Creed, Confession and Catechism reflects Calvin’s influence.

Calvin’s practical emphasis on the Moral Law as applied to every sphere of life revolutionized and elevated Western religion, society and culture.

• Calvin’s doctrine of the Church was rooted in practicality and discipline. His principle of the separation of church and state revolutionized the Western World and brought great political and social consequences.

By holding to the self–attestation or self–authentication of the Scriptures through the testimony of the Spirit and taking into account moral depravity and the noetic effects of the fall, Calvin pointed the way for a consistent presuppositional apologetic.

• The doctrine of the Christian ministry derived two principles from Calvin: that of an educated ministry to properly and consistently handle the Word of God and the principle of biblical pastoral counseling.

• Calvin’s contribution to the doctrine of grace was his insistence upon “Common Grace” to explain the work of God in restraining evil and the existence of gifts and talents, apart from regeneration, for the fulfillment of the creation or cultural mandate.


Keep in mind this;
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?


23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.


21 For after that in the wisdom of God
the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

The carnal wisdom of fallen men cannot suppress the truth of God.

Calvinism is the only consistent Christian theism, and so is the only Christianity that possesses an inclusive and consistent world–and–life view.
Thus, Calvinism poses the only consistent and intelligent threat or alternative to humanistic philosophy.


(Pelagianism, semi–Pelagianism or Arminianism are all essentially humanistic and deterministic as they begin with a rationalistic approach to Scripture,
posit a “limited god,”
the autonomy [“free will”] of man,
and deny Divine absolute predestination)


On thread #2 , posts 4 and 5 list many of these failed carnal philosophies.

The Hyper-Calvinism found here is nothing like John Calvin's.

ARMINIANISM....are Calvinists Jacob Arminius is a Calvinist.

John Calvin believed God loves everyone and ultimately understood anthropomorphisms.

He loved and thought all children are innocent.

He taught election was hereditary. Just like original sin was.

You believe in infant baptism right? John Calvin did.
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
The Hyper-Calvinism found here is nothing like John Calvin's.

ARMINIANISM....are Calvinists Jacob Arminius is a Calvinist.

John Calvin believed God loves everyone and ultimately understood anthropomorphisms.

He loved and thought all children are innocent.

He taught election was hereditary. Just like original sin was.

You believe in infant baptism right? John Calvin did.
Definitely believe infants can be baptized, why not? Did not used to believe that, but do now, and water baptism does not save anyone, but it does fulfil righteousness, like
John the Baptist baptizing people to prepare them for Christ.
You can view water baptism of infants the same way.

Calvin understood this as a covenantal relationship, where the church includes the children of believers.
One scriptural example Paul teaches about children of believers, that they are holy.
And if holy to God, why not baptize them.

1 Corinthians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.

“The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make His paths straight.’ ”

4 Now John himself was clothed in camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him 6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”

15 But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
yes, salvation does not come before sealing as we are saved after we follow what happens also described in Romans 10.
Neither does being born again mean at that moment the person is saved, before they believe in their heart God raised Christ from the dead.
What born again does is change our hearts to a new one that God then can teach and bring to Christ. The old heart is dead to Christ and God, they do not work with that. Like Christ says in John 8, the old heart is unable to listen to His words. Such a person will not be granted to believe.

IT is true though that all born again will be taught by the Holy Spirit and believe. Their is no instantaneous born again suddenly saved thing taking place.
The emotional response felt after believing comes from the Holy Spirit sealing us in Him.

God gives us a new inner heart is what this NC is all about, so that we can know them.

John 6, shows we must be teachable, that is what being born of God gives us. The 'all' here is not all men, it is all of those who are taught by God, they all come to Christ.

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me

The above is in opposite contrast to john 8 here, these people are unteachable.
43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
Obviously (from previous comments) I disagree. I see only two things - flesh and spirit. No in-between, no steps. Repent and believe (one act).
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Obviously (from previous comments) I disagree. I see only two things - flesh and spirit. No in-between, no steps. Repent and believe (one act).
They way I look at this, the only ones who will repent and believe are like John 6:44 says, they have been taught by the Holy Spirit. It could happen quickly or take longer. Jesus says first you have to hear and learn. Some people learning is harder than for others.

But you must be taught by God to believe in Christ. Personally, I always believe the drawing and the teaching takes time, not instantaneous.

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

so hearing, then learning, then they come to Christ, this is a process.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
utilyan,


The Hyper-Calvinism found here is nothing like John Calvin's.
Your response indicates you did not read what was posted, or if you did, you did not understand it at all.
You have no idea what you are posting about.


ARMINIANISM....are Calvinists Jacob Arminius is a Calvinist.
An empty statement.

John Calvin believed God loves everyone and ultimately understood anthropomorphisms.
I doubt you have read much of his teaching. More likely is you gleaned some out of context quote from an anti cal site.

He loved and thought all children are innocent.

He taught election was hereditary. Just like original sin was
.
No he did not, you are making up things, this post is a waste.
You believe in infant baptism right?

No...I do not. You again are clueless.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
They way I look at this, the only ones who will repent and believe are like John 6:44 says, they have been taught by the Holy Spirit. It could happen quickly or take longer. Jesus says first you have to hear and learn. Some people learning is harder than for others.

But you must be taught by God to believe in Christ. Personally, I always believe the drawing and the teaching takes time, not instantaneous.

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

so hearing, then learning, then they come to Christ, this is a process.
Thanks for explaining your view. I appreciate understanding how Christians differ in understanding these types of things.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Obviously (from previous comments) I disagree. I see only two things - flesh and spirit. No in-between, no steps. Repent and believe (one act).
Lost sinner is regenerated, then hears the Gospel, and receives Jesus as their Lord and savior!
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Lost sinner is regenerated, then hears the Gospel, and receives Jesus as their Lord and savior!
So a man is regenerated outside of Christ, this lost regenerated man hears the gospel and then receives Christ as savior??!!

It would be interesting to see you reconcile that with Scripture.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
So a man is regenerated outside of Christ, this lost regenerated man hears the gospel and then receives Christ as savior??!!

It would be interesting to see you reconcile that with Scripture.
Lost sinner attends a local church the Holy Spirit enables ans quickens him to now being able to hear and respond to the Gospel by receiving Jesus as lord!
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
So a man is regenerated outside of Christ, this lost regenerated man hears the gospel and then receives Christ as savior??!!

It would be interesting to see you reconcile that with Scripture.
They are not outside of Christ in time, God has foreknown them as His people. They are regenerated first, but still must repent and believe, and they will.

That verse 9 shows that. And the us are those God predestined, as in foreknew them.

2 Timothy 1:8-10
New King James Version


Not Ashamed of the Gospel
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Lost sinner attends a local church the Holy Spirit enables ans quickens him to now being able to hear and respond to the Gospel by receiving Jesus as lord!
I thought local churches were assemblies made up of Christians.

Anyway, you are saying a lost sinner decides to go to a local church, then the Spirit is able to regenerated the lost sinner, then the regenerated lost sinner hears the gospel, then the regenerated lost sinner receives Christ. Correct?

So Christ actually has nothing to do with regeneration?
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
They are not outside of Christ in time, God has foreknown them as His people. They are regenerated first, but still must repent and believe, and they will.

That verse 9 shows that. And the us are those God predestined, as in foreknew them.

2 Timothy 1:8-10
New King James Version


Not Ashamed of the Gospel
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
I understand the "in time" arguments but they are a bit too philosophical for my taste.

I do believe God draws men and the Spirit works in men towards repentance leading to salvation (what Paul calls a "godly sorrow").

But instead of viewing God as outside if time, the elect "in Christ" prior to salvation I believe Scripture simply looks to the saved being saved (the final state of the Kingdom).

The danger (IMHO) of arguing time is it can lead to the error that God has experienced what has yet to come (which is obviously not biblical).
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
I understand the "in time" arguments but they are a bit too philosophical for my taste.

I do believe God draws men and the Spirit works in men towards repentance leading to salvation (what Paul calls a "godly sorrow").

But instead of viewing God as outside if time, the elect "in Christ" prior to salvation I believe Scripture simply looks to the saved being saved (the final state of the Kingdom).

The danger (IMHO) of arguing time is it can lead to the error that God has experienced what has yet to come (which is obviously not biblical).
Scripture does explain to us why things are what they are. God declares the end from the beginning. Things that are not as though they were. God prepares beforehand the good works we are to do. And in His book are written all our days before any of them have happened.

All that should be of great comfort for believers.
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
God could not be God if He did not order and control so much information. He upholds all things by the word of His power.
Time has no effect on Him. That whole idea of the Ancient of Days, scriptures are written for us to try and comprehend His all encompassing majesty, and yet people fail to grasp who He is. God is beyond limitations. And it is mans foolishness to say God could make a rock He could not lift.

Isaiah 46:9-11
New King James Version


9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Psalms 139
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Scripture does explain to us why things are what they are. God declares the end from the beginning. Things that are not as though they were. God prepares beforehand the good works we are to do. And in His book are written all our days before any of them have happened.

All that should be of great comfort for believers.
I agree with this. And it is not only a comfort for believers but a command to do those good works.

I disagree that we were in Christ before we were saved, but I do believe we were predestined.
 
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