Calvinism... THE SEQUEL!

[webdog]

Well, you're making blanket statements about my grasp of Calvinism; unless you have some expertise in the area you are showing yourself to be a fool.

I've done no such thing. Show where I have ever questioned your knowledge of calvinism.

BTW I have reported your post. I've had it with your attitude and name calling. When challenged you resort to childish means.

 

[tragic_pizza]

I've done no such thing. Show where I have ever questioned your knowledge of calvinism.

BTW I have reported your post. I've had it with your attitude and name calling. When challenged you resort to childish means.

You've done no such thing?

Here's what you said:

Quote:
I'm not allowed in the Baptist sections, so why bother digging in there.

...because it would...
Quote:

Demonstrate to me your grasp of Calvinism.

Looks to me like you've done just that. But report away; the administrators are fair and I'll abide by any decision they make.

 

[webdog]

You've done no such thing?

No.
Where did I call you a name? Demonstrate bad attitude? I connected two of your posts with my own to make a point. Hardly calling someone a "fool".

 

[Pastor Larry]

Whatever Webdog might understand, even a brief search in the Baptist threads, or in the old CvA forum will demonstrate without objection that Calvinism is not among them. It is hard to remember a person on this board (and I have been here a long time) who has argued so vehemently against Calvinism with such a gross misunderstanding of it.

The worst part is that he doesn't even get it yet. He still thinks he knows it.

 

[Claudia_T]

Come on guys. Why not just tell each other you are sorry and try to act in a better way toward one another?


Tragic, you dont need to be calling someone a fool and webdog, why not just be nice to Tragic?

I hate to see people trying to get one another in trouble. Just begin anew and discuss things in a nice way.

(sorry but I had two boys growing up and I often had to tell them to stop fighting)

Now stop or you will both be sent to your room with no supper. Maybe ice cream but thats it. Please? I hate seeing anyone get kicked off.

Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

Yikes! I didnt realize that a Moderator was right above my post till just now, sorry about that, Moderator :wavey:

 

[Pastor Larry]

I am not a moderator in this forum. But having interacted with Webdog quite a bit, I just wanted to point out how easy it is to determine that Webdog is very uninformed about what it is he is vehemently against.

There should be no name-calling of any sort however.

 

[Claudia_T]

I am not a moderator in this forum. But having interacted with Webdog quite a bit, I just wanted to point out how easy it is to determine that Webdog is very uninformed about what it is he is vehemently against.


There should be no name-calling of any sort however.

Hi Pastor Larry,

Why dont you guys just think about doing a thread spelling out the real beliefs on Calvinism so that people can understand what its really all about? I for one would be interested in it. Instead of giving links to go read about it, I mean. Just a suggestion.

Claudia

 

[Pastor Larry]

It has been spelled out here ad nauseum in the CvA forum. All possible questions have been answered multiple times.

I have long said that I don't have a great problem if someone disagrees with what I believe on this issue. But please disagree with what I believe. Don't make up something I don't believe, attribute it to me, and then disagree with that. That is what webdog has pretty consistently done.

 

[webdog]

I am not a moderator in this forum. But having interacted with Webdog quite a bit, I just wanted to point out how easy it is to determine that Webdog is very uninformed about what it is he is vehemently against.

There should be no name-calling of any sort however.

Oh, Larry, it is you that really has no clue about the non cal position. Every debate you are in, you only twist my responses to construct your strawmen, and belittle and demean those who do not agree with you (I'm not the only one). Hardly behavior becoming of a moderator in any forum.

 

[webdog]

Whatever Webdog might understand, even a brief search in the Baptist threads, or in the old CvA forum will demonstrate without objection that Calvinism is not among them. It is hard to remember a person on this board (and I have been here a long time) who has argued so vehemently against Calvinism with such a gross misunderstanding of it.

The worst part is that he doesn't even get it yet. He still thinks he knows it.

Don't pretend that you know what it is I do and do not know. You must not read too many of my threads, let alone the majority of those here who do not hold to your theological view. You make the occasional appearance, and it is only to talk down to those who bring into light the problems of being a true TULIP follower. Bobryan (who has been here a lot longer than I, btw) speaks out against the "doctrines of grace" as much...if not more than I, yet you continue to follow me around demeaning me and assasinating my character. I have only been here less than two years, so your memory is incorrect. I think you like to target me because I present the false doctrine of calvinism for what it really is...false.

 

[DHK]

To be truthful Pastor Larry,
Most people don't know what Calvinism really is. They just follow the thinking of what the majority think it is. And that is pretty shallow.
"Calvinism" never originiated with Calvin. It came from Augustine. It is Augustinianism resurrected. We all know that Augustine is a Catholic, staunch defender of the Catholic faith, and a heretic. Yet that is where Calvinism had its roots. Calvin adored Augustine, almost to the extent of worship. That is where he got his ideas from. Simply looking at it from a historical perspective casts doubts on the whole system in my eyes.

BTW, I am neither an Arminian nor a Calvinist. Being one does not automatically put you into the other camp.

 

[tragic_pizza]

To be truthful Pastor Larry,
Most people don't know what Calvinism really is. They just follow the thinking of what the majority think it is. And that is pretty shallow.
"Calvinism" never originiated with Calvin. It came from Augustine. It is Augustinianism resurrected. We all know that Augustine is a Catholic, staunch defender of the Catholic faith, and a heretic. Yet that is where Calvinism had its roots. Calvin adored Augustine, almost to the extent of worship. That is where he got his ideas from. Simply looking at it from a historical perspective casts doubts on the whole system in my eyes.

That Calvin borrowed ideas from Augustine is a matter of history; the idea that he "adored" or "worshipped" Augustine is opinion, and an uninformed opinion at that.

Augustine was Catholic, yes, and Calvin was a Reformer, so to think that Calvin would simply do some kind of sixteenth-century copy-and-paste job ignores the facts. What was similar between the two was a dedication to what I'll call, for lack of a better term, a theocratic government. Calvin tried to make Geneva an exampleof Christian government for the rest of the world, based in no small part on Augustine's "City of God." This is not an out-of-the-ordinary thought for his day and time; there were very few people who thought of faith and government as separate entities.

Further, Augustine developed early forms of the doctrines of grace, original sin, and predestination. However, it is important to note, as you do not, that Calvin read and drew upon the writings of nearly all of the Early Church Fathers, and held no doctrine or opinion of theirs which was not supported by Scripture.

DHK, no rational theological position is simply created from nothing. It must be informed by the opinions and experiences of others in the faith, it must be bathed in prayer, and it must rely upon Scripture as its foundation. If any of these elements is missing, there is danger.

Calvin was careful to utilize all of these important resources.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Oh, Larry, it is you that really has no clue about the non cal position. Every debate you are in, you only twist my responses to construct your strawmen, and belittle and demean those who do not agree with you (I'm not the only one). Hardly behavior becoming of a moderator in any forum.

I will promise you without any fear of being wrong that I know more than you do about this topic. I have never twisted your words, and that is proven by the fact that you have never shown any place I have twisted your words. I don't talk down or demean anyone. I simply happen to know what I am talking about.

Don't pretend that you know what it is I do and do not know.

I don't have to pretend. I can read and have read, and have interacted with you for a long time. Have you forgotten that?

You must not read too many of my threads, let alone the majority of those here who do not hold to your theological view.

I read most of them in the CvA forum. I have since quit because they are repeats.

You make the occasional appearance,

You don't get 16000 posts by making occasional appearances. Most of those posts are on this topic.

Bobryan (who has been here a lot longer than I, btw) speaks out against the "doctrines of grace" as much...if not more than I,

Bob and I have interacted.

yet you continue to follow me around demeaning me and assasinating my character.

I don't follow you around and don't assassinate your character.

I have only been here less than two years, so your memory is incorrect.

Memory about what? You think I don't remember you? You think I haven't interacted with you?

I think you like to target me because I present the false doctrine of calvinism for what it really is...false.

You have yet to show how the doctrine of Calvinism is false. I will be very interested to see you do this. So far, what you have shown to be false isn't Calvinism.

So I will be waiting and reading. But I am not expecting anything new. I have told you many times that you need to learn what you are talking about. You simply won't listen.

 

[Pastor Larry]

"Calvinism" never originiated with Calvin. It came from Augustine.

Actually, it stemmed from Christ and his apostles.

We all know that Augustine is a Catholic, staunch defender of the Catholic faith, and a heretic.

This would be a little anachronistic.

Calvin adored Augustine, almost to the extent of worship.

No, no really.

Simply looking at it from a historical perspective casts doubts on the whole system in my eyes.

From a biblical perspective, it is the only position that can fully account for all of Scripture.

BTW, I am neither an Arminian nor a Calvinist. Being one does not automatically put you into the other camp.

Well, you either believe that God elects individuals to salvation unconditionally (Calvinist) or you don't (Arminian). No one has yet to show me a middle position between God elects unconditionally and God doesn't elect unconditionally.

 

[drfuss]

Larry writes:
"Well, you either believe that God elects individuals to salvation unconditionally (Calvinist) or you don't (Arminian). No one has yet to show me a middle position between God elects unconditionally and God doesn't elect unconditionally."

I agree that a Christian must believe in unconditional election to be a Calvinist. The problem here is your difinition of Arminian. For instance, most of the SBC churches do not believe in unconditional election, but they believe in eternal security. These SBC churches don't believe in unconditional election or irresistable grace and they certainly don't consider themselves Arminian. In general, Arminians are considered those who don't believe in eternal security.

 

[Amy.G]

Well, you either believe that God elects individuals to salvation unconditionally (Calvinist) or you don't (Arminian). No one has yet to show me a middle position between God elects unconditionally and God doesn't elect unconditionally.

Why can't we just believe the Bible and leave all these other people out of it? I'm probably going to get in trouble for saying this, but in my opinion Calvinism and Arminianism is very similar to the Catholic church's obsession with "church fathers". Just my opinion.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Why can't we just believe the Bible and leave all these other people out of it? I'm probably going to get in trouble for saying this, but in my opinion Calvinism and Arminianism is very similar to the Catholic church's obsession with "church fathers". Just my opinion.

But "just believe the Bible" is what gets us into this in the first place.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The problem here is your difinition of Arminian. For instance, most of the SBC churches do not believe in unconditional election, but they believe in eternal security. These SBC churches don't believe in unconditional election or irresistable grace and they certainly don't consider themselves Arminian. In general, Arminians are considered those who don't believe in eternal security.

You are correct that some Arminians don't believe in eternal security. But that is not true of all. Some do believe in eternal security. The dividing line runs through unconditional election. The dividing line is about who makes "the final decision" or "the first decision" depending on how you view it.

Why can't we just believe the Bible and leave all these other people out of it?

We can. Those people have been labeled Calvinists historically. We Calvinists have been charged with not believing the Bible, yet no one has been able to show one verse we don't believe.

 

[Amy.G]

But "just believe the Bible" is what gets us into this in the first place.

What else is there that's worth believing in?