Calvinism -TULIP

[Claudia_T]

Can anybody just please explain to me the basics of Calvinism and T.U.L.I.P. and what exactly that means?

Is the entire thing about that we cant do anything at all of ourselves? Does it have anything to do with Predestination?


Claudia

 

[BobRyan]

T - total depravity of the sinful nature. Unnable to accept Christ.
U - Uncondition Election (read arbitrary selection of the FEW in Matt 7 by God, who cares not for the MANY).
L - Limited Atonement "God so loved the FEW that He gave - Christ appeases an Angry God at Calvary for the FEW"
I - Irresistible Grace (Called and then hauled. You wake one day to discover you are already a Christian so might as well choose Christ as your Savior)
P - Perseverance of the saints. Those who are saved WILL persevere FIRM and steadfast to the end - never backsliding or falling away from the truth. (If ten years from today you do fall away - then your salvation today is retro-deleted).

in Christ,

Bob

 

[J. Jump]

While I don't agree with TULIP I don't think Bob's commentary after each point is 100% accurate His points are accurate in what each of the letters stands for.

 

[Brother Bob]

T - total depravity of the sinful nature. Unnable to accept Christ.
U - Uncondition Election (read arbitrary selection of the FEW in Matt 7 by God, who cares not for the MANY).
L - Limited Atonement "God so loved the FEW that He gave - Christ appeases an Angry God at Calvary for the FEW"
I - Irresistible Grace (Called and then hauled. You wake one day to discover you are already a Christian so might as well choose Christ as your Savior)
P - Perseverance of the saints. Those who are saved WILL persevere FIRM and steadfast to the end - never backsliding or falling away from the truth. (If ten years from today you do fall away - then your salvation today is retro-deleted).

in Christ,

Bob

nailed it!!!!

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

If you want a more accurate explanation of Calvinism, I suggest reading Sproul's "Chosen by God".

Joseph Botwinick

 

[webdog]

An outside perspective...
T... http://www.faithalone.org/journal/2003i/badger.html
U... http://www.faithalone.org/journal/2003ii/badger.html
L... http://www.faithalone.org/journal/2004i/badger.html
I... http://www.faithalone.org/journal/2004ii/badger.html
P... http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1998i/Hodges.html

 

[Claudia_T]

To Everybody:

Okay now, with the first one "T - total depravity of the sinful nature. Unnable to accept Christ" what all exactly does that involve? I want to hear it from all of you.

Doesnt everyone here believe we all have a totally depraved nature?

 

[ex-nihilo]

To Everybody:

Okay now, with the first one "T - total depravity of the sinful nature. Unnable to accept Christ" what all exactly does that involve? I want to hear it from all of you.

Doesnt everyone here believe we all have a totally depraved nature?

Yes, we all have a depraved nature. Man, of his own efforts, is not capable of anything good.

J.

 

[Brother Bob]

Doesnt everyone here believe we all have a totally depraved nature?

If I can believe everyone has totally depravity, then why can't I believe the Spirit that is striving with me is Christ?
I believe all sinned and come short of the Glory of God, but I also believe that the Spirit of God is striving with all men and when Adam and Eve eat of the tree of knowledge from that point on, man knows good and man knows evil. So when the Spirits are striving with us both good and evil, I think we can believe which every way we choose to follow. Regardless of some saying the dead can't do nothing, the "dead in sin" is separated from God but they can "believe" when God strives with them. I don't believe in "robots". Man is different than a beast or a tree, he has a soul. I certainly don't believe a man can save himself or anyone else but I do believe a man can choose and believe that Jesus is the Christ. "thy faith hath saved thee", Mary chose the good part, thy faith hath made thee whole, whosoever believeth shall be saved, etc.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

If I can believe everyone has totally depravity, then why can't I believe the Spirit that is striving with me is Christ?
I believe all sinned and come short of the Glory of God, but I also believe that the Spirit of God is striving with all men and when Adam and Eve eat of the tree of knowledge from that point on, man knows good and man knows evil. So when the Spirits are striving with us both good and evil, I think we can believe which every way we choose to follow. Regardless of some saying the dead can't do nothing, the "dead in sin" is separated from God but they can "believe" when God strives with them. I don't believe in "robots". Man is different than a beast or a tree, he has a soul. I certainly don't believe a man can save himself or anyone else but I do believe a man can choose and believe that Jesus is the Christ. "thy faith hath saved thee", Mary chose the good part, thy faith hath made thee whole, whosoever believeth shall be saved, etc.

So basically, what you are saying is that my sin nature is stronger than the striving of the Holy Spirit of God to restore me. Very rare is it that an Arminian actually admits that they serve a weak, ineffective god.:smilewinkgrin:

Too bad this is not the God of the Bible who is sovereign and effective in all matters. This is the reason that we can trust God and his promises. If there is one molecule in the whole universe that is outside of his control, then God is not God at all.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Claudia_T]

Actually if you think of the story of the Lost Sheep, Jesus went out and left the 99 sheep to find the lost one.

He had to go get it and carry it back on His shoulder to the fold. That seems to go along with the idea that we cant do anything.

On the other hand what about the story of the Prodical son? The Bible says when he was sitting in the pig pen he "came to himself" didnt he? He came to himself and realized some things... then decided it was better for him back at his Father's house.

That seems to go along with the other view that we do have a realization of things, right?

Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

So basically, what you are saying is that my sin nature is stronger than the striving of the Holy Spirit of God to restore me. Very rare is it that an Arminian actually admits that they serve a weak, ineffective god.:smilewinkgrin:

Joseph Botwinick

Joseph,

well when we are lost in sin arent we choosing to sin each time? The devil tempts us and we are choosing to do that? So our power of choice isnt diminished is it? Before we are "saved" I mean...

and wouldnt that same power of choice enable us to choose God instead?

Claudia

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Yes, we are choosing to sin each time. I never said our power of choice was diminished. What I am addressing is the reason we make the choices we do. One who is lost sins and never even gives it a second thought about his / her relationship to God. They are, by nature, at emnity with God. They would never choose, of their own free will to love God. It is only because of the effective grace of God that any of us ever choose to love God. He changes our desires and draws us to him. Now, I think it is fairly clear that this is not true of everyone in the world or else there would have been no Adolph Hitler or Mohammed Attah. Why did they choose to reject Christ, while I chose to accept him. It is not about anything good within me, or about them being bad people. It is all about the transforming sovereign power of God working in my life.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Claudia_T]

I was reading this:

"Let every one of you consider that your individual self has thus been borne upon Christ's shoulders. Let none entertain a masterly spirit a self-rightesous, criticizing spirit; for not one sheep would ever had entered the fold if the Shepherd had not undertaken the painful search in the desert."

and I was wondering how the different views would affect this...

Like for instance, if you believe that we have a depraved nature and that we dont have any power to choose, etc... would that cause you to have the above attitude that we should remember Jesus alone saved us and thus we should view everyone as equals and not have a self-righteous spirit?

How would that work? Just trying to find out how people view things on this..

Claudia

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I was reading this:

"Let every one of you consider that your individual self has thus been borne upon Christ's shoulders. Let none entertain a masterly spirit a self-rightesous, criticizing spirit; for not one sheep would ever had entered the fold if the Shepherd had not undertaken the painful search in the desert."

and I was wondering how the different views would affect this...

Like for instance, if you believe that we have a depraved nature and that we dont have any power to choose, etc... would that cause you to have the above attitude that we should remember Jesus alone saved us and thus we should view everyone as equals and not have a self-righteous spirit?

How would that work? Just trying to find out how people view things on this..

Claudia

If it is by grace that we are saved, then there is no room for pride or boasting. The only difference between me and Hitler in God's eyes is the grace (unmerited favor) of God.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Brother Bob]

Joe;
You tallk like your elevator don't stop on all floors.

BBob: My previous post.
I believe all sinned and come short of the Glory of God, but I also believe that the Spirit of God is striving with all men

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Joe;
You tallk like your elevator don't stop on all floors.

BBob: My previous post.
I believe all sinned and come short of the Glory of God, but I also believe that the Spirit of God is striving with all men

Bob,

If the Spirit of God is striving with all men, then why don't all men accept Christ. The only true and honest answer is that their sin nature is stronger than God and you serve a weak, ineffective god who is not sovereign over all the universe and cannot be trusted to keep his promises. This is not the One True God of the Bible and is not the God that I serve.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Brother Bob]

They love darkness rather than light and neither do they come to the light, LEST their deeds be reproved. That LEST, seems to say they could if they would.

He would be a weak God if he predestinated me to be one of the "elect" and I refused.

But giving me a choice makes Him a God beyond human understanding. Who hath known the mind of God and who hath been His councelor?

 

[LeBuick]

If it is by grace that we are saved, then there is no room for pride or boasting. The only difference between me and Hitler in God's eyes is the grace (unmerited favor) of God.

Joseph Botwinick

and what you chose to do with your measure of faith.

For God has given each man a measure, some refute it, some ignore it, others use it....

 

[Claudia_T]

well thats interesting that God gives each man a measure of faith, isnt that BEFORE we are saved? so even though we are depraved then, dont we have that measure of faith to be able to choose God?

Bob said
"He would be a weak God if he predestinated me to be one of the "elect" and I refused."

well that makes sense to me. but where does it say the elect can refuse?

I am not really sure how I feel about this whole thing yet... both viewpoints seem right.