Calvinism -TULIP

[BobRyan]

Speaking of Lucifer and Adam - created sinless and holy by God as opposed to the Calvinist idea of "created defective by God".

Of course God chose not to make them sinless and in harmony with his maker. Are you trying to say that had God tried to do this that he would have failed

No I am saying HE DID create them sinless and holy and in harmony with their creator - you are saying that he failed to do this - but He wanted to fail.

In Calvinism when people make bad choices it is God's fault - God MADE them defective so that they HAD to fail. But calvinism sets God up as some kind of mafia boss saying "yes but even though he is to blame He will not let us blame Him so we don't".

But I am thankful that Joseph B. is so willing to fully expose the flaws in Calvinism.

By contrast - Arminians admit to the Bible principle of choice and free will so they CAN admit that God DID create Adam perfect and sinless and then Adam CHOICE of his own God-given Free will to sin. 1/3 of the Angels in heaven made that same choice - 2/3's did not.

NONE of it was "because God created them defective" and that contradicts Calvinism.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Brother Bob]

When Adam and Eve eat of the tree of Knowledge of good and evil they were cast out of the garden but man has known since then there is good (which is of God) and there is evil (which is of Satan). How could you know good and evil without knowing there is a God and there is a devil. How could you commit evil, if you knew not. Calvinist say we know enough to commit evil but we do not know enough to do good, which the scripture tells us man knows both from the beginning of time.

 

[Claudia_T]

Speaking of Lucifer and Adam - created sinless and holy by God as opposed to the Calvinist idea of "created defective by God".



No I am saying HE DID create them sinless and holy and in harmony with their creator - you are saying that he failed to do this - but He wanted to fail.

In Calvinism when people make bad choices it is God's fault - God MADE them defective so that they HAD to fail. But calvinism sets God up as some kind of mafia boss saying "yes but even though he is to blame He will not let us blame Him so we don't".

But I am thankful that Joseph B. is so willing to fully expose the flaws in Calvinism.

By contrast - Arminians admit to the Bible principle of choice and free will so they CAN admit that God DID create Adam perfect and sinless and then Adam CHOICE of his own God-given Free will to sin. 1/3 of the Angels in heaven made that same choice - 2/3's did not.

NONE of it was "because God created them defective" and that contradicts Calvinism.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob,

Not that I believe any of this but why wouldnt or couldnt God have just created the Angels and Adam and Eve predestined to make the choice that they all made? If thats the way He made everyone else?

Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

1. I have to say that if I am understanding this correctly then this entire thing is just plain stupid because then most of the Bible was written just for the heck of it... all the parts that admonish us or correct us or command us... since we are just going to go ahead and do what God has pre-programmed us to do anyway.

2. Not to mention the monster this makes God out to be that He would create people who cannot follow what the Bible tells us to do even if they tried.

3. To me the entire thing seems like a secret plot for people to just be lulled into believing that they are just going to somehow sail into heaven because God just programmed them that way.


Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

Okay now let me tell you how I REALLY feel LOL! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Speaking of Lucifer and Adam - created sinless and holy by God as opposed to the Calvinist idea of "created defective by God".



No I am saying HE DID create them sinless and holy and in harmony with their creator - you are saying that he failed to do this - but He wanted to fail.

In Calvinism when people make bad choices it is God's fault - God MADE them defective so that they HAD to fail. But calvinism sets God up as some kind of mafia boss saying "yes but even though he is to blame He will not let us blame Him so we don't".

But I am thankful that Joseph B. is so willing to fully expose the flaws in Calvinism.

By contrast - Arminians admit to the Bible principle of choice and free will so they CAN admit that God DID create Adam perfect and sinless and then Adam CHOICE of his own God-given Free will to sin. 1/3 of the Angels in heaven made that same choice - 2/3's did not.

NONE of it was "because God created them defective" and that contradicts Calvinism.

in Christ,

Bob

You are questioning the fairness of God. Here is what the Bible says about that: Romans 9:19-22.

Merry Christmas.:jesus:

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

When Adam and Eve eat of the tree of Knowledge of good and evil they were cast out of the garden but man has known since then there is good (which is of God) and there is evil (which is of Satan). How could you know good and evil without knowing there is a God and there is a devil. How could you commit evil, if you knew not. Calvinist say we know enough to commit evil but we do not know enough to do good, which the scripture tells us man knows both from the beginning of time.

Not true. Calvinists believe that the lost know about good and evil, but that their hearts are, by nature, evil and that they will follow those evil desires. It is only when God changes their hearts and desires that they can do good in the eyes of God.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I have to say that if I am understanding this correctly then this entire thing is just plain stupid because then most of the Bible was written just for the heck of it... all the parts that admonish us or correct us or command us... since we are just going to go ahead and do what God has pre-programmed us to do anyway.


Not to mention the monster this makes God out to be that He would create people who cannot follow what the Bible tells us to do even if they tried.

To me the entire thing seems like a secret plot for people to just be lulled into believing that they are just going to somehow sail into heaven because God just programmed them that way.

Nothing the Bible says is in vain. The commands to be holy and perfect like God is holy and perfect condemn us in our sin and show us our desperate need for God and his grace and mercy.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Claudia_T]

Nothing the Bible says is in vain. The commands to be holy and perfect like God is holy and perfect condemn us in our sin and show us our desperate need for God and his grace and mercy.

Joseph Botwinick

but then are you saying that those who have been pre-programmed to be lost are just out of luck when they read all this about their desperate need for God's grace?

and these who were unfortunate enough to be born that way are just doomed to burn forever and ever in hell?

Because thats what it seems to say in the Islamic religion... unless I read that wrong.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

That is what it says in the Bible: Romans 9.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Claudia_T]

Romans 9:
11: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12: It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17: For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24: Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25: As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26: And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

 

[Claudia_T]

In the interest of fairness I posted the part in Romans chapter 9 that I think Joseph is referring to... so everyone can read that.

 

[tragic_pizza]

I highly recommend "Christian Doctrine" by the late Shirley Guthrie as an excellent explanation of Reformed theology, specifically that which has derived from John Calvin.

T - total depravity of the sinful nature. Unnable to accept Christ.

More precisely, it isn't that we are unable, we are completely disinterested without God's grace, which calls us to repentance. Calvin's point here was to express just how far we are from God, yet in mercy and love God comes to us.

U - Unconditional Election (read arbitrary selection of the FEW in Matt 7 by God, who cares not for the MANY).

Not sure what to make of the commentary ol' Bob added there. There are no preconditions upon you and I repenting and being reconciled to God. Surely even the most Fundamentalist among you can agree that God calls us "just as we are."

L - Limited Atonement "God so loved the FEW that He gave - Christ appeases an Angry God at Calvary for the FEW"

If it weren't so pitiful an example of how those outside of Reformed theology view those inside it, this would be funny.

Jesus died for all of creation. The atonong work of Christ is, however, only effective with those who are reconciled to God through Christ. Come now, isn't that a Rock of Gibralter for Fundies? Only those what repents is saved?

I - Irresistible Grace (Called and then hauled. You wake one day to discover you are already a Christian so might as well choose Christ as your Savior)

*giggles unconrollably.* That's the most idiotic thing I have ever read.

"How will they hear without a preacher?" We proclaim Christ, so that those whom God saves will be reconciled to God. No one just, out of the blue, "decides" to follow a deity they've never heard of, dude. Come on, think.

P - Perseverance of the saints. Those who are saved WILL persevere FIRM and steadfast to the end - never backsliding or falling away from the truth. (If ten years from today you do fall away - then your salvation today is retro-deleted).

Oh, so close, but then you blow it at the end, miserably.

The doctrine of perseverance is not at all about "well, he backslid so he must not 'a been saved in the firs' place." Please.

Thedoctrine of perseverance is a promise that God will, in mercy and love, help the saint to persevere in the faith. Like predestination, it isn't meant to be an escape clause or an excuse for poor behavior, but a promise for those who stand strong in the faith.

Honestly, people, if you;re going to criticise a theological position, at least get educated on that position.

 

[Claudia_T]

The Bible tells us NOT to harden our hearts:

Heb:3:15: While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Heb:4:7: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.


..which would be quite stupid and pointless if we HAD TO harden them... or else if we just COULDNT harden them...




This was taken from a commentary on how the heart of Pharoah was hardened:



How does the Lord harden the hearts of men? In the same way in which the heart of Pharaoh was hardened. God sent this king a message of warning and mercy, but he refused to acknowledge the God of heaven, and would not render obedience to His commands. He asked, "Who is the Lord that I should obey his voice?" {CC 89.2}

Had Pharaoh accepted the evidence of God's power given in the first plague, he would have been spared all the judgments that followed. But his determined stubbornness called for still greater manifestations of the power of God, and plague followed plague, until at last he was called to look upon the dead face of his own first born, and those of his kindred; while the children of Israel, whom he had regarded as slaves, were unharmed by the plagues, untouched by the destroying angel. God made it evident upon whom rested His favor, who were His people. {CC 89.4}

Every additional evidence of the power of God that the Egyptian monarch resisted, carried him on to a stronger and more persistent defiance of God. . . . This case is a clear illustration of the sin against the Holy Ghost. "Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Gradually the Lord withdrew His Spirit. Removing His restraining power, He gave the king into the hands of the worst of all tyrants--self. {CC 89.5}

 

[Claudia_T]

Because LOOK everyone...

Ex:8:15: But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Reformed theology makes no attempt to explain the phenomenon of people
not being reconciled to God through Christ.

God is a mystery. We are allowed to understand parts. The rest we must be comfortable in not knowing.

Seriously, read Guthrie.

 

[Dustin]

Bob, there is no biblical basis for preveniant grace. There is no biblical basis for libertarian free will. I'm suprised that you, a self proclaimed believer in sola scriptura, don't prayerfully search the scriptures and see the plain fact God is totally sovereign and man is totally responsible. I did that, mostly because of the argument on this board, and Dan Corner's insane babbling on this very subject. I never wanted the calvinists to be right, I tried every which way to wedge those doctrines (the ones in question) in places in the bible where they just aren't. I earnestly and prayfully read the scripture and repented of my prior beliefs when I found that that's not what the bible taught. Proof texting certain verses, mostly out of the surrounding context, is all I had. But what I came out with was a deeper reverence for the Gospel, because it's just a BIG thing, bigger than I ever thought. I was humbled. So all encompassing and so thourough and deserving of glory and praise. The Gospel is a huge thing, and if we tamper with it to suit doctrines with no biblical basis, that's idolatry. Here's the thing, once one truly realizes the awfulness of sin, and God's holiness and hatred of it, then in ones mind the Gospel immediatly becomes more precious. If one holds to the doctrines of preveniant grace and libertarian free will the logical end is open theism. James White did make a good point that the 6th point of calvinism should be the freedom of God. The God of the bible is totally sovereign, the God of the bible saves sinners for no reason other than the fact that it pleases Him to do so. That's what grace is. I've been through all of this and studied earnestly and prayfully and I was soundly refuted, humbled, and moved to repentence of such dead works and doctrines of men. The Law is death to all of us, because the Law is a good thing, but we're bent towards evil and man has enough free will to send himself to hell, until Holy Spirit works faith and repentence in him. I hope this would spur some on to further study, because it's certainly not making me anymore popular on here. Search the Scriptures, really read up on all of this, prayfully seek wisdom.

Grace and Peace be with you all,
Dustin

 

[Dustin]

Reformed theology makes no attempt to explain the phenomenon of people
not being reconciled to God through Christ.

God is a mystery. We are allowed to understand parts. The rest we must be comfortable in not knowing.

Seriously, read Guthrie.

Short but right on target. I'm sorry I called you a liberal, with no basis to do so. Please forgive me.

 

[Dustin]

I highly recommend "Christian Doctrine" by the late Shirley Guthrie as an excellent explanation of Reformed theology, specifically that which has derived from John Calvin.

More precisely, it isn't that we are unable, we are completely disinterested without God's grace, which calls us to repentance. Calvin's point here was to express just how far we are from God, yet in mercy and love God comes to us.
Not sure what to make of the commentary ol' Bob added there. There are no preconditions upon you and I repenting and being reconciled to God. Surely even the most Fundamentalist among you can agree that God calls us "just as we are."
If it weren't so pitiful an example of how those outside of Reformed theology view those inside it, this would be funny.

Jesus died for all of creation. The atonong work of Christ is, however, only effective with those who are reconciled to God through Christ. Come now, isn't that a Rock of Gibralter for Fundies? Only those what repents is saved?
*giggles unconrollably.* That's the most idiotic thing I have ever read.

"How will they hear without a preacher?" We proclaim Christ, so that those whom God saves will be reconciled to God. No one just, out of the blue, "decides" to follow a deity they've never heard of, dude. Come on, think.
Oh, so close, but then you blow it at the end, miserably.

The doctrine of perseverance is not at all about "well, he backslid so he must not 'a been saved in the firs' place." Please.

Thedoctrine of perseverance is a promise that God will, in mercy and love, help the saint to persevere in the faith. Like predestination, it isn't meant to be an escape clause or an excuse for poor behavior, but a promise for those who stand strong in the faith.

Honestly, people, if you;re going to criticise a theological position, at least get educated on that position.

Amen and Amen.

 

[Claudia_T]

TO EVERYONE:

What do you do with the fact that the Bible tells us we have to DO all the things on this list to make our "calling and election SURE" ???


2 Peter 1:
1: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3: According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for IF ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.




Go back and read ALL the things it says in the previous verses you HAVE TO DO... to make your calling and election sure. Basically it is telling us we have to have an entire character transformation... the top of the ladder being "LOVE" or charity



THAT is true Bible Election. God votes and the Devil votes but it is you who decides who is going to win the election.


Claudia