Calvinism -TULIP

[DeafPosttrib]

BobRyan,

Amen. Well saying. :thumbs:

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[BobRyan]

John 3:18 has nothing at all to do with the atonement, it just states the fact that God so loved the world. Yes, I do believe that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, and whosoever BELIEVES in Him WILL NOT PERISH, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16-18 "God so Loved the World that HE GAVE..."

this is the crux of the difference between 4 and 5 point Calvinism - vs the Arminian (and the 3 Point Calvinist) views. We believe God actually did so love the WORLD that He gave His Son FOR THE WORLD (as He says in John 6).

The 4pt and 5pt Calvinist view is that "God so loved the FEW that He gave His Son for THEM and then called that so loving the WORLD as if we would not notice the difference".

And of course Calvinists faithfully pretend that in fact they don't notice the difference.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan,

Amen. Well saying. :thumbs:

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Thanks DP!

 

[BobRyan]

2 Peter 3 tells us about the WILL of God.

"God is not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to repentance".

For all the "Let the Will of God be sovereign" arguments of Calvinists - it is strange to see them back peddaling when they get to this statement on the WILL of God.

Dustin
2 Peter was an epistle written to Christians - to the Church , so how does the world figure into this letter to the Church?

Well "obviously" it applies to the WORLD not just the church since the Christians church did not STOP growing at the time Peter wrote this letter. They have ALWAYS been directing their evangelism toward the unsaved WORLD. NEVER did the church say to the unsaved WORLD "hey all you unsaved people out there - go home - this mesage about God wanting people to repent is not for you".

Your attempts to downsize 2Peter 3 so that "ALL" only means "church" is a kind of double-speak that has never worked in NT Christian evangelism in all of time.

The NT Church has ALWAYS directed its evangelistic outreach to the UNSAVED World the "ALL" of 2Peter 3.

In the Arminian system God convicts "The WORLD of Sin and righteouseness and judgment" and God is the Light that coming into the WORLD "enlightens every man". In the Arminian system Christ stands at the hearts door for ALL so that "IF ANYONE hears My voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in".

So what is the difference between the one who DOES choose to open the door and the one who does NOT? The Arminian would say that they exercise their free will - the Calvinist will so "no God is to blame for that"

Dustin said
Indeed it is man's responsibility to repent and believe in Christ, but not all do. What's the difference between one who believes and one who doesn't? God is the difference.

Certainly that is a good Calvinist statement.

HENCE the Calvinist future scenario already posted here!

That's the beauty of the new covenant, God declared it AND fufilled it, free of man's actions. If it was up to us, we'd fall.

SOOOOoooooo when the parent comes to God after seeing their loved ones writhing in torment in the flames and says "O God - My God couldn't you have DONE SOMETHING!?? God gives them the answer that Calvinism so loves to hear -- 'Why of course I COULD - IF I had CARED to. It was ALL UP TO ME. You had nothing at all to do with it -- nor did your loved ones out their suffering now".

At least we are clear on what the Calvinist model is.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Dustin -
Why did the Lord tell us of judgement day when people will cry Lord , Lord, didn't we do all these great things in Your name? Because there are those in the church that He NEVER knew. He didn't know them one day and forget about them, He NEVER knew them. The people He never knew are called workers of lawlessness. It's pretty clear here they are resonsible for thier sin, but it's also pretty clear that it's Christ, not a man actions, that decides who is righteous and who is not.

This is the point that needs to be exegeted FROM the text of Matt 7. Christ argues "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord but HE WHO DOES the will of My Father will enter". Notice it does not say "of course they COULD not DO the Will of the Father Because I did not know them".

You say that He should have said "I DECIDE who will enter - it has nothing to do with the one choosing to DO the will of the Father -- so don't worry about the future - just leave it all up to Me. There is no scenario where YOU need to decide something or be WARNED about something since it is all My doing - none of it is yours".

I.E WHY is Christ giving Matt 7 in the Arminian form of a warning motivating CHOICE instead of using the Calvinist form just stated?

Dustin said -

God is just. In order for God to be just, evil has to be judged and punished. "It's a fearful thing to fall in the hands of the living God." as the writer of Hebrews said. Now God punishing evil is God showing His justice, His divine attributes, His power and His glory.

Actually it is only "JUST" if the person who DOES evil is something other than a robot programmed to DO evil.

If God makes a rock to fall on a nail. Then blows up the rock after it falls saying "bad rock - you fell on the nail" He is not being just at all.

That is nothing but arbitrary and fickle - a pointless demonstration that rock's fall and then someone wants to pronounce "justice over them" by condemning them for consistently doing what they were designed to do.

Dustin said --
If people are totally depraved, if we are inwardly enemies of God, then how can we make a decision for Christ? We can't, not until God works grace and faith in us, giving us what we don't have or deserve.

This is another flaw in Calvinism.

Calvinism argues that God "CAN NOT" simply DRAW mankind and so ENABLE lost mankind to choose -- God must ALSO cause lost mankind to BE a saved BELIEVER who then merely "discovers" their new condition and "chooses nothing".

But that is never the form of Gospel evangelism in all of scripture.

Rather in scripture God says " I WILL DRAW ALL mankind unto Me" John 12:32.

In scripture God "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.

In scripture God comes into the world and "enlightens EVERY MAN" John 1.

In Scripture God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance.

In Scripture the whosoever will -- CHOICE factor is ENABLED by the supernatural work of God -- but that work STILL has Christ on the OUTSIDE knocking on the door -- and the lost sinner on the INSIDE left with the CHOICE of opening the door (Rev 3).

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Dustin]

If the verses are taken out of context, you never will understand the true context. Most of those verses have already been dealt with biblically. I do not have the time or the energy to reply to every single error in your arguments (though I would like to). If it is your intention to ignore what the text says, then so be it. I have a sneaking suspicion as to why you continuously try to refute the doctrines of Grace. It is not my charge to reply back at every single thing you say, but only to stand with what the Bible says. I'm a layman, I'm no one special, I'm not a theologian, I'm not a preacher, I'm nothing but sinner saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Grace has brought be this far, and Grace will bring me home, as the song says. You aren't arguing against John Calvin, or tulips, or the Reformation, you are arguing against the cause of it. If it weren't for God's grace at that time, the great majority of us would be Roman Catholics woshipping the pope. Now that I think about it, the majority of professing Christians today do anyway. People in that day died because they protested doctrines that you are arguing for. All I can say is that such things are spiritually discerned, and the Lord knows who are His.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Dustin,

Nice try.

Claudia T., BobRyan, and I do intepreting scriptures in contextually often. Even, I make posts at baptistboard to interpreting scriptures by contextually. I notice Calvinists seem twisting scriptures by their own philosophy intrpreting, and guesswork, not willing to accept scriptures completely.

For example - don't you care to explaining to me what Matthew 25:30 "And cast ye the unprofitbale servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

I do read the whole passage of 'talents' of Matthew 25:14-30 in contextually. How about verse 30? Most security pastors skip verse 30, they do not want to explain or teach it to the congregation. Why?

Don't you care to explain verse 30 to us? Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Dustin]

Dustin,

Nice try.

Claudia T., BobRyan, and I do intepreting scriptures in contextually often. Even, I make posts at baptistboard to interpreting scriptures by contextually. I notice Calvinists seem twisting scriptures by their own philosophy intrpreting, and guesswork, not willing to accept scriptures completely.

For example - don't you care to explaining to me what Matthew 25:30 "And cast ye the unprofitbale servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

I do read the whole passage of 'talents' of Matthew 25:14-30 in contextually. How about verse 30? Most security pastors skip verse 30, they do not want to explain or teach it to the congregation. Why?

Don't you care to explain verse 30 to us? Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Alright. I read that passage the same way I read the parable of the ten virgins. The servents are a picture of the visible Church, every body who warms a pew and makes a profession of faith. They are waiting for Christ's return. The talents aren't remarkable abilities, but they're things that all baptized people are given without distinction (like, the Bible, for instance, hearing of the Word being preached, participation in the Lord's Supper, etc...). We see that all professing Christians recieve something from God, be it health, or knowledge, or whatever else, those are the talents. We're all indebted to God regardless of whether we are truly converted or just professing, but we learn that many don't make good use of these mercies. They are professing Christians, and they have talents and mercies given to them, but they don't do anything with them. They were cut off, they bore no good fruit, because they never were converted. Bearing fruit is a sign that one has been saved, the servents who increased the talents bore fruit, and were called good and faithful, but the wicked servent did nothing but bury his talent, and he was sent to outer darkness. The wicked servent was a tare among the wheat. He wasn't saved. He partook of all thing benefits of being member of the Church, but never was a true member. This parable is saying that true servents WILL work and increase thier talents and act on the mercies and grace God has given them, but the the mere professer has nothing but judgement and punishment to look forward to. This is not a teaching of conditional security, but a teaching along the lines of the parable of the sower, and the parable of the wheat and the tares. Not all who are in the visible Church are of the true Church. Again, grace is the basis of salvation, faith is the means of salvation, and Christ is the object of that faith. If salvation is obtained or retained by anything other than grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, then Christ died in vain, and we have room to boast. That's not the biblical teaching of salvation. How is that?

Dustin

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Dustin say:

They are professing Christians, and they have talents and mercies given to them, but they don't do anything with them. They were cut off, they bore no good fruit, because they NEVER(emphasis mine) were converted...

Whoa, whoa, whoa Dangerous philosophy interpreting!!!! I am sure that Jesus Christ disagrees your interpreting.

You are gravely error saying of Christ's words.

Remember, in the first place all three servants already have their talents. Their master expecting that his servants take their responsiblity to USE their talents to do them. 'Talent' is a picture of duty or task. Christ tells us, IF we love him, keep His commandments, that means, we ought to obey his Words as we carry task to serve him. Because He is our master & King.

If suppose we have small thing, no matter how small or not important thing to us, we must use it. For example - usher or janitor in the church. This duty seem nothing or not important comparing like as 'pastor'. Yet, Christ expects usher or janitor is supposed to do something to glory Him.

A wicked servant KNEW that he/she is supposed to USE talent for his/her master. But, that servant didn't obey master's command, and hid talent, do nothing for the Lord. At the Judgment Day(Judgment Seat of Christ/Great White Throne- my belief of a general judgment day, NOT two or three different judgment days according dispensationalism doctrine), servent's account or work shall be declared and be judged. Christ will rebuked to a lazy servant for not obey and do His commandment, will send servant go into everlasting punishment - lake of fire. Obivous, this CANNOT be the teaching of security salvation according as what many baptist churches actual teaching today.

You have to accept what Jesus Christ, himself actual saying, obey His words.

I am disappoint with many baptist(securists) pastors in America refuse preach or teach on Matt. 25:30, and many other passages form the Bible to the congregation. I am fear that, many baptist pastors will face greater condemnation worser than regular Christians at the Judgment Day.

I am seem off the track on this topic. But, I want to discuss focus on the teaching of "The Perservance of the Saints" according to Calvinism doctrine. See what the Bible actual teaching us.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[BobRyan]

If the verses are taken out of context, you never will understand the true context. Most of those verses have already been dealt with biblically.

It is great that you want Bible texts dealt with Biblically (a bit redundant - but still great).

And that is why we always keep them in context - it is an Arminian text of scripture as it turns out.

Dustin said

I do not have the time or the energy to reply to every single error in your arguments (though I would like to).

If it is your intention to ignore what the text says, then so be it.

I just wanted to present them to you so that you would know what you are ignoring.

I too am a layman, I'm no one special, I'm not a theologian, I'm not a preacher, I'm nothing but sinner saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Grace has brought be this far, and Grace will bring me home, as the song says.

You aren't arguing against John Calvin, or tulips, or the Reformation, you are arguing against the cause of it.

I am arguing against CalvinISM -- not against any one person. The Bible texts I have highlighted on this thread simply show where the Bible contradicts Calvinism. Easy for all to read.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Claudia_T]

In the parable of the ten talents, I just wanted to bring out a point people usually miss.


This man with the one talent who went and hid it and didnt use it, his attitude was the same exact one that so many Christians have today, namely that God is a "hard man" reaping where He has not sown...



Mt:25:24: Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed


This means that they viewed God as asking them to do something that was impossible for them to do! EXACTLY EXACTLY the same attitude so many Christians today have... they view God as a hard taskmaster that asks the impossible of them then they claim they are "under grace" at every turn when they see all the many Bible verses commanding them to DO SOMETHING!

"Oh thats the God of the Old Testament" "you are being leaglistic thinking God expects us to do something today, we are under grace!" "its impossible to keep the commandments" "God doesnt really expect us to use our talents"

They are being pictured in this parable and Im afraid too many will find out too late!

Thats why Jesus ALSO paints the end of this picture here as well. This is what happens at the end of the road, and its because of WHAT THEY DO (namely, lawlessness, iniquity):


Matthew 7:

19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


iniquity means sin, lawlessness!


Jesus tries to tell us this in so many ways.... folks in the end its what you DO in response to the grace of God thats going to count. YES you must rely on the grace of God for salvation but this is supposed to provoke a RESPONSE of love for God in you:

Jn:5:29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Rom:6:2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom:6:15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


sin=iniquity=lawlessness


People just dont want to let their sinful nature die. Thats all there is to it and they make excuses instead for it.


Claudia

 

[annsni]

I know that Arminians will say that Calvinists feel they have a 'free ticket' to heaven and can do anything they want - which is so far from the truth.

What saddens me is to think of living a life where I'm terrified that everything I do will have the potential to send me to hell. The Bible says that if I look at someone with lust, it's as bad as committing adultery - what if I look at a guy and think "He's really cute" but that's really lust (when I don't feel like it is) and that sin could send me to hell?? What about when I go to a friend's house tomorrow and am a bit jealous of their newly remodelled home?? Maybe that sin would send me to hell! What about the anger I had towards my kids yesterday? What about that sin that I committed that I don't even know I did it?? That makes me think of God as someone who's looking for just that moment to zap me out of the kingdom. I don't see God as someone like that. Sure I'll sin. I'm working on myself with the Holy Spirit to make myself more like Christ but I will never be like Christ until I stand in my perfect body and see Him face-to-face. I will stumble, I will fall. God is there as my loving heavenly Father to pick me up, brush me off and give me a hug. Because of the Spirit of God in me, I do not WANT to sin - I'm not using His grace as a free ticket but a reassurance that He loves me even when I stumble. No matter what.

 

[Dustin]

Dustin say:



Whoa, whoa, whoa Dangerous philosophy interpreting!!!! I am sure that Jesus Christ disagrees your interpreting.

You are gravely error saying of Christ's words.

Remember, in the first place all three servants already have their talents. Their master expecting that his servants take their responsiblity to USE their talents to do them. 'Talent' is a picture of duty or task. Christ tells us, IF we love him, keep His commandments, that means, we ought to obey his Words as we carry task to serve him. Because He is our master & King.

If suppose we have small thing, no matter how small or not important thing to us, we must use it. For example - usher or janitor in the church. This duty seem nothing or not important comparing like as 'pastor'. Yet, Christ expects usher or janitor is supposed to do something to glory Him.

A wicked servant KNEW that he/she is supposed to USE talent for his/her master. But, that servant didn't obey master's command, and hid talent, do nothing for the Lord. At the Judgment Day(Judgment Seat of Christ/Great White Throne- my belief of a general judgment day, NOT two or three different judgment days according dispensationalism doctrine), servent's account or work shall be declared and be judged. Christ will rebuked to a lazy servant for not obey and do His commandment, will send servant go into everlasting punishment - lake of fire. Obivous, this CANNOT be the teaching of security salvation according as what many baptist churches actual teaching today.

You have to accept what Jesus Christ, himself actual saying, obey His words.

I am disappoint with many baptist(securists) pastors in America refuse preach or teach on Matt. 25:30, and many other passages form the Bible to the congregation. I am fear that, many baptist pastors will face greater condemnation worser than regular Christians at the Judgment Day.

I am seem off the track on this topic. But, I want to discuss focus on the teaching of "The Perservance of the Saints" according to Calvinism doctrine. See what the Bible actual teaching us.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Where does Christ disagree with the teaching I presented? He taught the parable of the wheat and tares and the ten virgins too. It's the same principle from different angles. He taught that there were people who professed faith who really weren't in faith. He taught that the tares were sown by Satan among the wheat. Those will be gathered up at the end of the age and they will be thrown in the fire. The foolish virgins say "Lord , Lord, open to us', but Christ says "verily I say unto you, I know you not." Your explanation of the talents is the same one I gave, if we were really of the bride, we would do these things, if we were really faithful sevents, we will increase the talents. Except I'm not saying that they do those things to become the bride or to become faithful, they are faithful and they work because they ARE the bride and faithful servents. That's the difference between Dan Corner's book and the Bible. Indeed we're are working and waiting because we are in the faith, not in the faith because we are working and waiting. That's what Christ taught. Paul taught it, John taught it, Peter taught it. There are tares among the wheat, and wolves among the sheep. The tares were sown by Satan, they reap the benefits of being members of Christ's church, but they are not true members. They don't keep Christ's commandments, they don't love Him. They profess one thing and do another. At the judgement, Christ will say "I never knew you." They were obviously never converted, else they would have done those things. I'm not a baptist, I'm Reformed, I attend a Presbyterian church, and I just gave you the passage as it is taught by Reformed Christians. Why will Baptists get thrown into hell on judgement day? That's bad news for the majority of this board. No Christians will be thrown into hell on judgement day. There will be people who professed Christ but never really had Him there. Think of the papists who bow and worship the pope, they profess Christ but the surely don't have Him. People like that are the ones going to hell. The morman and the jehovah's witness, they profess Christ, but they surely don't know Him or have Him. They will be thrown into hell on the last day. The teaching of the Reformation is imputed righteousness, where Christ merits are credited to the Christians account, so we being guilty are declared righteous because of Christ and Christ ALONE. Romish doctrine teaches a sort of infused righteousness, that Christians are declared rightous in Christ given grace, but that grace is not alone enough. That's what Dan Corner is teaching. Reformation says: We are righteous because of Christ and Christ alone, and we do the work we are commanded to do. Dan Corner and the papists say: We are righteous because of Christ, BUT we have to do this and this and that to get to heaven, because Christ alone isn't enough. That is wrong and dangerous. He professes one thing, and denies it practically. We work because we are saved, not saved because we work. That's the difference.

Dustin

 

[Claudia_T]

Dustin,

Its hard to read your posts when its all one big paragraph, at least it is for me.

 

[Eric B]

In Romans 7 Paul argues "The Law is holy just and good but I am not".

In Romans 7 Paul further argues "the Law is spiritual and is spiritually discerned".

In Heb 8 He states that the New Covenant writes the Law of God in the heart.

In Romans 2 Paul states that the true Christian "Shows the Works of the Law written on the heart" so that he is a Jew who is one inwardly. He states further in Romans 2 that in terms of Gospel Justification it is the doers of the Law that will be justified not simply the hearers.

Hence in Romans 8 Paul contrasts saved vs lost and notes that those who are lost "Do NOT walk" in accordance with the Law of God neither indeed CAN they. For they walk after the flesh not the Spirit.

In 1 John 2 we are read this harsh statement by a NT author telling us that the one who does not WALK as Romans 8 says we must walk - and yet they claim to know Christ -- they "are a liar"

That is the obvious part.

Rom 8
5:For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Contrast here is between life and death - saved and lost. Not "lost and loster".

Rom 8
7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Here again the issue is war and hatred against God. Paul is not making the argument "Those who read scripture and follow it are at war against God by doing that". Rather He is arguing that sinful mankind (defined as BOTH Jews and Greeks in Rom 3) are ALL at war with God until they are born again. This is the starting Context of Romans 2 and 3. Never does Paul argue that only Jews are lost or at war with God.

Rom 8
9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

In Christ,

Bob

If this was aimed at what I said, I'm not arguing that "those who read scripture and follow it are at war with God", or "lost and loster", or stuff like that. It's true that the Law is good and holy and that man is not, but is naturally at war with God. That's what the Jews didn't understand. They left out that last part, and thought they were basically good because of their heritage, and could justify themselves with the Law alone. So they rejected Christ, and hence remained in their "fleshy" at war with God condition. But that Law did nothing but condemn their imperfect, and often ulterior works. They then tried to persuade Gentile converts to be circumcised and in other ways compromise their faith in Christ. Paul says if the Gentiles comply, Christ would be of "no effect" to them, and then they would remain in their "fleshy" state. So it's not keeping the Law in itself that I'm saying is "fleshy"; It's trying to keep it while rejecting Christ, as if you could actually justify yourself without Him. This was the problem in the NT.
So my only point is that "the flesh" is not just certain sinful WORKS we normally think of, but rather the whole CONDITION of being naturally at war with God.
As much as I am critical of Calvinism, one point they do make sometimes is that the Arminians (and especially the anti-OSAS Wesleyan influenced Holiness types) sometimes forget this, and come to think of "sin" as ACTS only, and this is evidenced when they speak of "the flesh" in terms of acts. Like what Charismatic types confess to having an oubutst of anger or lust and say "oops, I "got in the flesh' for a moment".

 

[tragic_pizza]

You know all this arguing between Calvinists and Arminians comes down to deciding whose theology is less messed up.

None of us have it "right," people. Yeesh.

 

[Amy.G]

You know all this arguing between Calvinists and Arminians comes down to deciding whose theology is less messed up.

None of us have it "right," people. Yeesh.

:laugh: Ain't that the truth!

 

[Claudia_T]

somebody has it right. or else theres no use even having a Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

I know that Arminians will say that Calvinists feel they have a 'free ticket' to heaven and can do anything they want - which is so far from the truth.

That can only be true of 4-Pt Calvinists.

annsni
What saddens me is to think of living a life where I'm terrified that everything I do will have the potential to send me to hell.

Far worse is the 3 and 5 point Calvinist case where failing to "persevere 10 years from today" will get today's assurance deleted.

annsni -
The Bible says that if I look at someone with lust, it's as bad as committing adultery - what if I look at a guy and think "He's really cute" but that's really lust (when I don't feel like it is) and that sin could send me to hell??

Arminians do not (generally) believe that each time you sin you lose your salvation. John makes it clear in 1John 2:1 "THESE things I write that you sin NOT - but if anyone does sin we have an advocate with the Father".

John does not say "each time you sin you are lost".

that is not an Arminian teaching you have ever seen promoted on this board by Arminians.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You know all this arguing between Calvinists and Arminians comes down to deciding whose theology is less messed up.

None of us have it "right," people. Yeesh.

There are only two options and there is a group claiming each one of them.

That is the easy part - all options are covered.

Either there is free will -- or there is not.

Both Arminian and Calvinist groups claim God is sovereign.

Both Arminian and Calvinist groups claim that the supernatural DRAWING of God enables all that depravity disables when it comes to enabling choices for God.

But beyond that - Arminians hold to the text of scripture and Calvinists don't. What is so hard about seeing that?:type: :jesus:

In Christ,

Bob