Calvinism vs. DoG??

[SimpleMan]

I agree with the simplicity of being saved through faith—but the post was not about how one is saved through faith in Christ (or the basic essentials of “Joe Christian” coming to Christ)—but was attempt to refute certain theological ideas by using examples such as Adam & Eve’s freedom to sin & the betrayal of Judas to demonstrate the inaccuracies of specific soteriological theories—when in reality the subject runs much deeper than this & (the original post) really did nothing more than oversimplify a complex subject. If you are going to make points that are not related to the original subject—I would request a little more clarity in your varying off the topic at hand-

First of all, let me offer some clarity, since it seems to be lacking. When I respond to a post, first and foremost, I pray about it. I ask God about everything, not a professor, or a book with man's view, or anything else. Then I wait. If he gives me something to respond with or that matter, preach when it comes to church, then that's what I use. I don't stick to parameters that man puts on the subject matter. Mans views (mine included) are meaningless when God is left out of the equation, which is happening more and more nowadays. People are depending on their education, degrees, a dictionary, the internet, and other things of this world to argue their points and in the meantime, they forget to consult the Author and Creator of all things, God. I try my best to be a student and I learn as much as possible, but my main teacher is and always will be Christ.
I get the little jab about oversimplifying a complex subject. (I think my screen name gave me away).:tongue3:I take that as a wonderful compliment. Thank the Lord! It's actually a answered prayer. As a preacher, my goal is to not talk over peoples' heads so that they don't understand. It's to preach and spread the gospel in a manner where everybody can understand. It's people who want to take a simple message and turn it into something complex that worry me. These people do this, in my opinion, to make themselves feel smart and above us simple people. Sounds alot like what the Pharisees, Saducees and other religious leaders did during Jesus' time here on Earth. As Christians, are we not supposed to be "Christ-like". Wasn't his message a "simple message". I'm sure he was accused of "oversimplyfing" a complex subject, so that everyone could understand it. The religious leaders hated that fact. Isn't that why he used parables to teach? So that the common, simple man could relate. It's the elitest attitude that some people have that is used to make Christianity a private club where eligibility is limited to only a select few.

Love and Blessings to all......:godisgood:

 

[preacher4truth]

Not today- but I have seen you at least as abrasive as me in SOME exchanges.

But it is apparent that we are BOTH working on it.

But this guy brings out the worst in many of us.

You're way worse than me. JK.

I saw what you were dealing with before. The bottom line fact is he has and uses double standards, (wherein he can use a medical dictionary, but one can't use an expression) then when faced with facts and held to them, he tucks tail.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

First of all, let me offer some clarity, since it seems to be lacking. When I respond to a post, first and foremost, I pray about it. I ask God about everything, not a professor, or a book with man's view, or anything else. Then I wait. If he gives me something to respond with or that matter, preach when it comes to church, then that's what I use. I don't stick to parameters that man puts on the subject matter. Mans views (mine included) are meaningless when God is left out of the equation, which is happening more and more nowadays. People are depending on their education, degrees, a dictionary, the internet, and other things of this world to argue their points and in the meantime, they forget to consult the Author and Creator of all things, God. I try my best to be a student and I learn as much as possible, but my main teacher is and always will be Christ.
I get the little jab about oversimplifying a complex subject. (I think my screen name gave me away).:tongue3:I take that as a wonderful compliment. Thank the Lord! It's actually a answered prayer. As a preacher, my goal is to not talk over peoples' heads so that they don't understand. It's to preach and spread the gospel in a manner where everybody can understand. It's people who want to take a simple message and turn it into something complex that worry me. These people do this, in my opinion, to make themselves feel smart and above us simple people. Sounds alot like what the Pharisees, Saducees and other religious leaders did during Jesus' time here on Earth. As Christians, are we not supposed to be "Christ-like". Wasn't his message a "simple message". I'm sure he was accused of "oversimplyfing" a complex subject, so that everyone could understand it. The religious leaders hated that fact. Isn't that why he used parables to teach? So that the common, simple man could relate. It's the elitest attitude that some people have that is used to make Christianity a private club where eligibility is limited to only a select few.

Love and Blessings to all......:godisgood:

Praise the Lord for your desire to spread the word of truth—that is the main agenda for any Christian regardless their education level. So I will be he first to say-you certainly have your priorities in order when it comes to that. But the fact is—Jesus used parables & it was not so simplified that everyone understood. In fact his parables often caused more confusion than understanding (Matt 13:9-10). Thus, Jesus was probably not accused of oversimplifying things—but put things in a way that those who were given the ability to know would know & those who weren’t would not (v 10). Of coarse the message of salvation is very simple—those who believe in Christ will be saved from their sins. I think Christ was very straightforward about this, but this does not mean that every biblical subject is as simple as how one is saved. If it were then there would be no division among biblical believing Christians, no different theological theories, no variation in biblical interpretation, or no denominations. It is true we often get no where when we try to make things complex or over people’s heads. But it is also true—if we oversimplify—we run the risk of forfeiting genuine biblical truth. I personally believe God uses both types for his kingdom. While those who focus on the simple gospel message of salvation are used by God to bring people to salvation, those who take God’s Word deeper & study it as the profound deep spiritual truth that it is—help people who are saved grow in spiritual maturity. There is truly a need for both types & b/c of this they should not be at odds with each other—but thank God they have each other to fulfill His eternal plan. So if I came off like I was insulting you- I do apologize—b/c we are both brothers in Christ & need each other for our unique individual spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12:4-31). :jesus:

 

[webdog]

lol.

Do I sound arrogant and abrasive, or simply debating? BTW, I saw what you were dealing with, he avoids facts and goes on another trail.

I haven't avoided anything, now you are making stuff up. I thought you weren't wanting debate on the BB to turn personal...so why are you taking it in that direction?

 

[webdog]

Not today- but I have seen you at least as abrasive as me in SOME exchanges.

But it is apparent that we are BOTH working on it.

But this guy brings out the worst in many of us.

...how many fingers point back at you, Luke? I'm not a pastor. What's your excuse?

 

[preacher4truth]

First of all, let me offer some clarity, since it seems to be lacking. When I respond to a post, first and foremost, I pray about it. I ask God about everything, not a professor, or a book with man's view, or anything else. Then I wait. If he gives me something to respond with or that matter, preach when it comes to church, then that's what I use. I don't stick to parameters that man puts on the subject matter. Mans views (mine included) are meaningless when God is left out of the equation, which is happening more and more nowadays. People are depending on their education, degrees, a dictionary, the internet, and other things of this world to argue their points and in the meantime, they forget to consult the Author and Creator of all things, God. I try my best to be a student and I learn as much as possible, but my main teacher is and always will be Christ.
I get the little jab about oversimplifying a complex subject. (I think my screen name gave me away).:tongue3:I take that as a wonderful compliment. Thank the Lord! It's actually a answered prayer. As a preacher, my goal is to not talk over peoples' heads so that they don't understand. It's to preach and spread the gospel in a manner where everybody can understand. It's people who want to take a simple message and turn it into something complex that worry me. These people do this, in my opinion, to make themselves feel smart and above us simple people. Sounds alot like what the Pharisees, Saducees and other religious leaders did during Jesus' time here on Earth. As Christians, are we not supposed to be "Christ-like". Wasn't his message a "simple message". I'm sure he was accused of "oversimplyfing" a complex subject, so that everyone could understand it. The religious leaders hated that fact. Isn't that why he used parables to teach? So that the common, simple man could relate. It's the elitest attitude that some people have that is used to make Christianity a private club where eligibility is limited to only a select few.

Love and Blessings to all......:godisgood:

What does 2 Corinthians 10:12 say about comparing ourselves with others?

Isn't that what the Pharisees did, too? You've done exactly the same thing you've accused others of.

 

[preacher4truth]

I haven't avoided anything, now you are making stuff up. I thought you weren't wanting debate on the BB to turn personal...so why are you taking it in that direction?

Oh. OK. And now I'm lying. Thanks. That's not fair nor truthful.

 

[webdog]

You're way worse than me. JK.

I saw what you were dealing with before. The bottom line fact is he has and uses double standards, (wherein he can use a medical dictionary, but one can't use an expression) then when faced with facts and held to them, he tucks tail.

I haven't tucked anything away, P4T. Address some points I make instead of countering them with red herrings and we might have a good discussion. Try it instead of constantly bringing more heat than light to your discussions.

Physical death is NOT the same as spiritual death. If it is, physical life is the same as spiritual life. Are you going to support that line of thinking?

 

[webdog]

Oh. OK. And now I'm lying. Thanks. That's not fair nor truthful.

Neither is half the stuff you said about me on this thread.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not today- but I have seen you at least as abrasive as me in SOME exchanges.

But it is apparent that we are BOTH working on it.

But this guy brings out the worst in many of us.

That is because he's smart & cagy & aggressive. all and all I think a solid opponent (if I can use that terminology). Ive had my own run ins with our brother & he has beat me up a few times.

Wait here boys, Im getting the popcorn...LOL

 

[preacher4truth]

I haven't tucked anything away, P4T. Address some points I make instead of countering them with red herrings and we might have a good discussion. Try it instead of constantly bringing more heat than light to your discussions.

Physical death is NOT the same as spiritual death. If it is, physical life is the same as spiritual life. Are you going to support that line of thinking?

Look, I simply used the Biblical definition of a word, and you went all up in arms about it and equated it with Calvinism, which to you automatically means it is false, and then you sought other means to arrive at a different meaning so it fits your theology, or fits your mind so you can understand it, then voila it must be correct because you understand it.

All of your defining is trying to base it on your own understanding and attempting to use your understanding and reason as an end all, that if it doesn't make sense to the human mind, specifically yours, then it MUST mean what your finite mind can grasp it to mean only. God forbid being a corpse spiritually be way beyond our comprehension? Everything else is bunk, even the literal word defined to you is bunk. Why? Because it doesn't make sense to you, so it has to be wrong, then Calvinistic.

That is exactly what you are doing and that is plain fact.

Then you, at the same time tell me that using the true literal word means I am trying to "Calvinize" it. Calvinism was the furthest thing from my mind when I looked at the word.

I've asked you in a round about way to consider that I don't look at everything through Calvinism, so do me a favor and don't put me in that box on everything I say. If the Bible says it is corpse, then that is what it says. If that true definition makes me a Calvinist to you, unjustly, so be it.

Pure Bible definition. That is what I used.

We don't know what spiritual death is. You nor I, and all it entails. I'll just take God's Word on our state prior to our knowing Him. I feel doing that has way more value and authority than depending on your definition. Fair enough?



BTW, do you say that we are worthy of Christ dying for us?

 

[webdog]

See...you didn't answer the question. Why?

I never "calvinized" anything...I have no idea what you are talking about, brother. The discussion is purely on what death means, and can you define spiritual in the manner as physical. Using THAT logic, that you can...I conceded to the physical definition of death to point out the inconsistencies in doing so. You are a smart man, you know death is the ending of life.

There is nothing wrong with using reason with one another particularly when our Lord said "let us reason together" in regards to reasoning with Him. The fact is, by YOU introducing nekros into this discussion, that when used spiritually, it is used METAPHORICALLY...NOT...literally.

I agree we don't know the extent of spiritual death, but we do know a spiritually dead person CAN reach out and PERHAPS find Him although He is not far from us (Acts 17). THAT is ability...and THAT contradicts "corpse". We know when we are spiritually dead our soul is separated from God, and when our body (corpse ) is in the grave, our soul is separated from it. All along I have maintained it's about separation, NOT ability.

 

[preacher4truth]

The only thing I haven't answered is you saying are the 2 types of death the same.

But if you look I did answer.

I don't know. No one does. I take the word nekros at face value. You took me to task for that claiming I did so because I look at it as a Calvinist. Not true.

Now, do you say we were worthy of His death?

 

[webdog]

The only thing I haven't answered is you saying are the 2 types of death the same.

But if you look I did answer.

I don't know. No one does. I take the word nekros at face value. You took me to task for that claiming I did so because I look at it as a Calvinist. Not true.

Now, do you say we were worthy of His death?

First, I answered that on the other thread. I hate cross posting on different threads. Of course I'm not worthy of His death...nobody is.

Second, nekros at face value is used as a metaphor when dealing with spiritual matters. That is what the non-medical dictionary stated

Third, what you didn't answer was my recent question of whether we should also understand physical life to be the same as spiritual life.

 

[preacher4truth]

First, I answered that on the other thread. I hate cross posting on different threads. Of course I'm not worthy of His death...nobody is.

Second, nekros at face value is used as a metaphor when dealing with spiritual matters. That is what the non-medical dictionary stated

Third, what you didn't answer was my recent question of whether we should also understand physical life to be the same as spiritual life.

There are similarities absolutely. Are they the same exactly? No. That doesn't really help this. Also, the non-medical dictionary is not the final authority is it?

I believe God did all of the saving, even enabling a spiritually dead soul to respond to Him. Arguing whether or not we can hear him is just another subpoint to the whole thing. Saying that we can hear Him does not prove that we can respond without Him giving us the ability to do so.

Adam could hear Him. But God showed him who it must be that does all of the saving. God took care of all of it in providing a covering. He rejected Adams covering. His own effort fell short. God reached in and did it for them. All of it.

It's that you cannot accept that, that this goes round and round and round. I happen to believe we were incapable until He quickened us. Perhaps all of this happens instantly.

 

[webdog]

There are similarities absolutely. Are they the same exactly? No. That doesn't really help this. Also, the non-medical dictionary is not the final authority is it?

God's Word is the authority, but in order to understand it, we need to know what words mean. Now, I will concede there are similarities, and by you stating there are not exactly the same means they are not to be viewed as the exact same thing, namely a lifeless corpse. A similarity between both is separation.

I believe God did all of the saving, even enabling a spiritually dead soul to respond to Him. Arguing whether or not we can hear him is just another subpoint to the whole thing. Saying that we can hear Him does not prove that we can respond without Him giving us the ability to do so.

I believe God does all of the saving also, but I think where we part ways is the enabling. Cain could have done the right thing (God said so), yet he was spiritually dead. How could this be if he were a spiritual corpse? Cain was nekros...yet he had the ability to do the right thing. Another strike against the "corpse" theory.

Adam could hear Him. But God showed him who it must be that does all of the saving. God took care of all of it in providing a covering. He rejected Adams covering. His own effort fell short. God reached in and did it for them. All of it.

I agree with all of this. Who put the covering on, though? The passover lamb was sacrificed...but...it had to be applied. It didn't apply itself.

 

[preacher4truth]

God's Word is the authority, but in order to understand it, we need to know what words mean. Now, I will concede there are similarities, and by you stating there are not exactly the same means they are not to be viewed as the exact same thing, namely a lifeless corpse. A similarity between both is separation.
I believe God does all of the saving also, but I think where we part ways is the enabling. Cain could have done the right thing (God said so), yet he was spiritually dead. How could this be if he were a spiritual corpse? Cain was nekros...yet he had the ability to do the right thing. Another strike against the "corpse" theory.
I agree with all of this. Who put the covering on, though? The passover lamb was sacrificed...but...it had to be applied. It didn't apply itself.

Cain could have made a choice, but refused to make the right one. In not doing so, did he ultimately reject God enabling Him to do so, and His conviction? Does not His goodness lead us to repent, change mind? Look at how the word "leadeth" or "leads" when referring to repentance in Romans 2:4, how it is used elsewhere. It is interesting indeed.

When the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses/cleansed me, I certainly did not apply it myself. Neither did you.

We can't use that example of Passover as an absolute in that we have to apply it ourselves. I think God applied the blood to my account on His own when I believed.

 

[webdog]

Cain could have made a choice, but refused to make the right one.

Agreed. As Luke would say, we are in one Camry. Or...was that a Honda...
At any rate...spiritually dead person = ability to respond.

When the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses/cleansed me, I certainly did not apply it myself. Neither did you.

You would have had to via faith. Regardless of whether you are given the gift of faith, or it is something we are created with, WE are the ones who need faith in Christ for salvation.

We can't use that example of Passover as an absolute in that we have to apply it ourselves. I think God applied the blood to my account.

That is but one example showing the symbolism of having to apply the atonement. In the OT the high priest made the atonement on behalf of the entire nation, believer and unbeliever alike...but only those who had faith were covered by the blood.

 

[RAdam]

I would like a text that tells me that only those who had faith had the atonement applied to them in the OT.

 

[preacher4truth]

Agreed. As Luke would say, we are in one Camry. Or...was that a Honda...
At any rate...spiritually dead person = ability to respond.
You would have had to via faith. Regardless of whether you are given the gift of faith, or it is something we are created with, WE are the ones who need faith in Christ for salvation.
That is but one example showing the symbolism of having to apply the atonement. In the OT the high priest made the atonement on behalf of the entire nation, believer and unbeliever alike...but only those who had faith were covered by the blood.

Our faith doesn't save us. Grace came first. I believe that enabled us to believe and gave us life to respond to Him. By grace are you saved through faith. I don't believe the spiritually dead person had the ability to respond, but that God's Word gave them that ability. Some reject Him. The sad fact is some people are just going to go into Hell in their sins.

Symblization of having to apply it to be saved does not necessitate that we apply it ourselves. God accounted to Abrahams account that he was righteous, not the other way around. God reached out and chose Abram, showing grace to whom He wills to do so, called Him, and Abram was then enabled to believe. God then applied to His account righteousness. God finds us, not vice versa.