Calvinism/Why God Hates

[salzer mtn]

Why Does God Hate

The same could be said of why does God Love. The answer to both is because he chooses to do so. God is glorified in everything he does. God raised up Pharaoh for one purpose and that was to show His (God) power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth, Rom 9:17 After Pharaoh served his purpose God drowned him.

 

[steaver]

We are to love our enemies because we don't know who the elect or none elect is for sure. How would you feel if you shunned a certain person or showed hatred toward that person in this life because he is not saved at that time but later on you would meet him in heaven ?

Now salzer, we are to love our enemies because we don't know who the elect are??? Come now.

Jesus gave us the reason we are to love ALL. Matt 5:45 - "That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven".

As children of the Most High, we are to ACT like the Most High in loving ALL. God loves them so we are to love them!!!

Now you all need to stop misrepresenting our God and stop saying God hates most people. Think about what you are saying! It's shameful!! This is the ends of embracing Calvinism....sad.

 

[robustheologian]

Jesus gave us the reason we are to love ALL. Matt 5:45 - "That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven".

As children of the Most High, we are to ACT like the Most High in loving ALL. God loves them so we are to love them!!!

That's exactly what I said.

 

[salzer mtn]

Now salzer, we are to love our enemies because we don't know who the elect are??? Come now.

Jesus gave us the reason we are to love ALL. Matt 5:45 - "That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven".

As children of the Most High, we are to ACT like the Most High in loving ALL. God loves them so we are to love them!!!

Now you all need to stop misrepresenting our God and stop saying God hates most people. Think about what you are saying! It's shameful!! This is the ends of embracing Calvinism....sad.

The scripture say's that God hateth all the workers of iniquity. The scripture say's Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated. Before the children were born and before either one had done good or evil God chose to love one (Jacob) and he also chose to hate the other ( Esau) and the reason he chose to do this was that the purpose of election might stand. But many will say that is not right of God to do this, they make God to be unrighteous. But who art thou O man to reply against God ? Shall a worm rise up from the dust to question his maker ? Again God said, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. When God said to love your enemies, where do you read anywhere in that scripture where God said he loved them ?

 

[salzer mtn]

Steaver do you think God loved Pharaoh ? In the book of Jude there were certain men that had crept into the church. These men were ungodly men, turning the grace of God into lasciviousness, denying the only Lord God. But notice one thing, the scripture say's of these men that they were before of old ordained to this condemnation, Jude 1:4. So if God ordained these men to accomplish his purpose, did he ever love them ?

 

[PreachTony]

The scripture say's that God hateth all the workers of iniquity. The scripture say's Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated. Before the children were born and before either one had done good or evil God chose to love one (Jacob) and he also chose to hate the other ( Esau) and the reason he chose to do this was that the purpose of election might stand. But many will say that is not right of God to do this, they make God to be unrighteous. But who art thou O man to reply against God ? Shall a worm rise up from the dust to question his maker ? Again God said, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. When God said to love your enemies, where do you read anywhere in that scripture where God said he loved them ?

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Are we not all sinners? Is not sin considered the working of iniquity within our own lives? So if God hates ALL workers of iniquity, then arguably God hates all of humanity.

The truth is, following the precepts of Calvinism, we are presented a God who harbors hatred for the majority of His own creation, which He made in His own image, and which He breathed into and created a living soul. The God I see revealed in the person of Jesus Christ in the New Testament is not a God that seemingly indiscriminately hates the vast majority of the people He comes across.

 

[steaver]

Steaver let me ask you a question.
What do you hope to gain by seeking to find a divide or to cause division between one Cal and another?

Do you really think division is difficult to find among Calvinist? What is ironic is you all claim to have "Divine Enablement" to believe Calvinism/TULIP/DoG or whatever else you want to label it, and you all claim that whatever you believe is because "God opened your eyes". But apparently God is divided because He is showing you all different truths.

Forget for a second that we hold opposite theology from you.
I if I write something in a wrong way, or mis-speak on an issue what do you gain by pressing others to harp on a Mistake or error.

Any of you could offer a humble correction at any time. I have yet to see one, when offered a chance to explain or correct, usually I see doubling and tripling down saying "I stand by what I posted".

God is God. We are totally dependent on Him to reveal who He is and what He does. There are not many times where God explains in detail His thoughts.
He reveals certain things, and others are known only to Himself;

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen


You ask on the secret things, we offer what we see, and yet you seek to go back and forth like the mosquito.

I ask for secret things??? I have only debated things YOU Calvinist have proclaimed are a matter of fact!

You tried to get AA to go after me, you tried to get all the cals to go after me, now you want me to go after Con 1....for what purpose?

I believe you are getting a bit paranoid there brother.

Do you really want truth? The truth is we are all at different levels of growth.

When I can I seek out godly persons to run ideas by to trim off what I hold that should be left behind.

We are not debating growth here. The subjects have been precise. Does TULIP equal the Gospel. Does God hate the non-elect. Does no TULIP equal no sheep.

AA might not like how I express some of my views. I believe he would agree with most of what I believe, but I am more than sure that how I express myself sometimes would make him cringe and think to himself...I would never say it that way!


If I or Con 1, or any cal say something inconsistent, ask for clarification...do not be the mosquito:thumbsup:

:laugh: I always give you guys plenty of room to retract or restate, what I always get is a double down "I stand by what I posted" or a slicing and dicing of a conversation out of context and then claiming you was speaking of just this part.

Here is one of my favorites, which I gave you plenty of room to retract and your final word was "I stand by what I posted"...

Steaver.....With TULIP being so blatant and clearly being expressed in the scriptures, could we conclude the Holy Spirit is failing to teach this truth to the children of God

Icon....No.....Jesus declared that the sheep will hear His voice, others who do not, are not His sheep...that is why they do not hear;
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

This is exactly what SBM believes and this is what AA disagreed with you on, but you doubled down anyways. I asked about TULIP, you offered "no sheep" salvation scripture.

 

[steaver]

Steaver do you think God loved Pharaoh ? In the book of Jude there were certain men that had crept into the church. These men were ungodly men, turning the grace of God into lasciviousness, denying the only Lord God. But notice one thing, the scripture say's of these men that they were before of old ordained to this condemnation, Jude 1:4. So if God ordained these men to accomplish his purpose, did he ever love them ?

So why do you think God hated them before they ever did anything wicked?

 

[convicted1]

So why do you think God hated them before they ever did anything wicked?

You may not realize this, but you are teetering on open theism...

 

[salzer mtn]

Are we not all sinners? Is not sin considered the working of iniquity within our own lives? So if God hates ALL workers of iniquity, then arguably God hates all of humanity.

The truth is, following the precepts of Calvinism, we are presented a God who harbors hatred for the majority of His own creation, which He made in His own image, and which He breathed into and created a living soul. The God I see revealed in the person of Jesus Christ in the New Testament is not a God that seemingly indiscriminately hates the vast majority of the people He comes across.

I believe there are degrees of sinners. The scripture say's if the righteous scarcely be saved where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear. I believe in these last day's iniquity shall abound. Evil men shall wax worse and worse. I believe to accomplish the last day scripture God is giving some of the un-elect over to reprobate minds and a searing of conscience. I did not say that God hates all sinners because the word sinner can have a double meaning. The saved are nothing more than sinners saved by grace, and as long as they are in the flesh they will have two natures, one prone to do evil and the other to do good. Paul said he was the chief of sinners. When God said he hateth the WORKERS of iniquity and he is angry with the wicked every day, these people have been given over to the lust of their own evil ways, they are reprobates, they run to do evil, they plot, they plan to do mischief. Some of these evil workers are plucked out of the fire like Paul but most are not.

 

[salzer mtn]

So why do you think God hated them before they ever did anything wicked?

I have already stated, because he chose to do so. It is not for me to question God as to why he does things. It is enough for me that I take him at his word.

 

[PreachTony]

I believe there are degrees of sinners. The scripture say's if the righteous scarcely be saved where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear.

While we can place degrees of sin on things, it is also true that anyone who keeps the whole law and offends only in one small part is guilty of all. Arguably, sin is sin in the eyes of God. Sure, there is a sin that is unpardonable, but otherwise God will forgive the murderer just as He will forgive the liar just as He will forgive the adulterer.

I believe in these last day's iniquity shall abound. Evil men shall wax worse and worse. I believe to accomplish the last day scripture God is giving some of the un-elect over to reprobate minds and a searing of conscience.

This worsening of society is scriptural. However, my question becomes this: Why does God have to turn any one of the un-Elect over to a reprobate mind, seeing as they are already separated from God and, in their status as non-Elect, are never going to be offered any opportunity to repent to begin with? They theoretically don't need to be turned over to a reprobate mind, as they are reprobate from birth, born damned and nothing they do in any way can change that.

I did not say that God hates all sinners because the word sinner can have a double meaning. The saved are nothing more than sinners saved by grace, and as long as they are in the flesh they will have two natures, one prone to do evil and the other to do good. Paul said he was the chief of sinners. When God said he hateth the WORKERS of iniquity and he is angry with the wicked every day, these people have been given over to the lust of their own evil ways, they are reprobates, they run to do evil, they plot, they plan to do mischief. Some of these evil workers are plucked out of the fire like Paul but most are not.

Going back to my statement above, saying these people have been turned over to a reprobate mind might not be an accurate statement. Under the precepts of Calvinistic Election, these folks were ostensibly born in a reprobate state. They are never going to be given the "gift of repentance," they are never going to be regenerated, so what is God turning them over to? Seeing as they really can't get worse than they already are: given to damnation, disallowed even the opportunity to repent.

 

[robustheologian]

Going back to my statement above, saying these people have been turned over to a reprobate mind might not be an accurate statement. Under the precepts of Calvinistic Election, these folks were ostensibly born in a reprobate state. They are never going to be given the "gift of repentance," they are never going to be regenerated, so what is God turning them over to? Seeing as they really can't get worse than they already are: given to damnation, disallowed even the opportunity to repent.

Great point!!

 

[convicted1]

Are we not all sinners? Is not sin considered the working of iniquity within our own lives? So if God hates ALL workers of iniquity, then arguably God hates all of humanity.

The truth is, following the precepts of Calvinism, we are presented a God who harbors hatred for the majority of His own creation, which He made in His own image, and which He breathed into and created a living soul. The God I see revealed in the person of Jesus Christ in the New Testament is not a God that seemingly indiscriminately hates the vast majority of the people He comes across.

You have to put things in their proper context, proper order as to how God deals with all mankind, both elect and non-elect...

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."(1 Cor. 15:20-23)

God's work were known from the foundation of the world(Acts 15:18). He sees the sheep rejoicing in heaven and the goats in the lake of fire as an already fulfilled event. He knew each and every sheep lost, and sent Christ to redeem them from the rest, the goats. He sees them through Christ. Even when the sheep were gone astray, He still saw them through Christ, their Sinbearer.

God saw the end from the beginning, even before He spoke the world, stars, moons, planets, sun into existance, He saw the end, because He declared it to be so...


ETA:I think Isa. 41:4 carries some weight in my belief regarding this subject..

 

[convicted1]

I never thought to view it that way. :thumbs:

And that we definitely agree on.

Those two ^^^, you agreed with me, and then you said this to Brother Tony....

Great point!!

LOL. I kid, I kid! :laugh:

 

[salzer mtn]

While we can place degrees of sin on things, it is also true that anyone who keeps the whole law and offends only in one small part is guilty of all. Arguably, sin is sin in the eyes of God. Sure, there is a sin that is unpardonable, but otherwise God will forgive the murderer just as He will forgive the liar just as He will forgive the adulterer.

This worsening of society is scriptural. However, my question becomes this: Why does God have to turn any one of the un-Elect over to a reprobate mind, seeing as they are already separated from God and, in their status as non-Elect, are never going to be offered any opportunity to repent to begin with? They theoretically don't need to be turned over to a reprobate mind, as they are reprobate from birth, born damned and nothing they do in any way can change that.

Going back to my statement above, saying these people have been turned over to a reprobate mind might not be an accurate statement. Under the precepts of Calvinistic Election, these folks were ostensibly born in a reprobate state. They are never going to be given the "gift of repentance," they are never going to be regenerated, so what is God turning them over to? Seeing as they really can't get worse than they already are: given to damnation, disallowed even the opportunity to repent.

A man can be a reprobate but he may be kept in check by the laws of the land so that his sins are not manifest to the world. In these last days the wicked don't care about laws, their sins are being manifest to the world. They are haters of authority, they openly sin with a high hand. No, people are not born reprobates. To become reprobate a person goes from sin to sin, they give themselves over to greater sin to the point of no conscience and God gives them over to the lust of their own hearts, Rom 1:24.

 

[robustheologian]

Those two ^^^, you agreed with me, and then you said this to Brother Tony....

LOL. I kid, I kid! :laugh:

Lol...both sides have good arguments. I try not waffle...I just appreciate good arguments on both sides.

I still stand behind belief that God doesn't actually hate the non-elect but that he doesn't have the same love for them that he has for the elect. Like I said, just like He's the savior of the world and especially of the elect, God loves the world but He especially loves the elect.

Hope that doesn't seem like "waffling"......or baconing or any other breakfast food. LOL

 

[convicted1]

Lol...both sides have good arguments. I try not waffle...I just appreciate good arguments on both sides.

I still stand behind belief that God doesn't actually hate the non-elect but that he doesn't have the same love for them that he has for the elect. Like I said, just like He's the savior of the world and especially of the elect, God loves the world but He especially loves the elect.

Hope that doesn't seem like "waffling"......or baconing or any other breakfast food. LOL

Personally, I think Edwards' "Sinners in the hands of an angry God" is very good at showing how God deals with people...

 

[savedbymercy]

You are trying to teach doctrine from questionable scripture. If you were teaching prayer from a book of prayers that would be different. But to teach "God hates" from "Prayers of Judgment" in the OT, is to butcher scripture.
You should know that.

Then you may not be a true Calvinist. Read the life of Calvin and you may run from it.

It is not edifying.

The question was asked by the previous poster:
If we are commanded:
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Then this makes it obvious that even God loves all--even enemies.
He also said love your neighbors--not just the elect. You don't get to pick your neighbors.
Lift up your eyes and behold the fields ripe unto harvest.
He was speaking of the entire world.

Jesus wept over ALL in Jerusalem, even those who were about to murder him. He wasn't just weeping over the elect.

Matt 5:44 says nothing about Who God Loves ! And it is a sin to love them that hate the Lord 2 Chron 19:2 !

 

[savedbymercy]

The teaching that God hates the non-elect does not come from the Bible; it comes straight from Calvin himself. The Bible teaches of a God that loves everyone--all the world. There is no one that cannot be saved, no one that God will not save if they wanted to be saved, and there was no one Jesus ever rejected while on earth. His invitation "come unto me..." was to all, and no one was ever rejected.
It is still to all. God is a God of love. His very essence is love. Calvin denies this.

The quote above is taken from Dave Hunt's book "What Love is This," and is found on p.192. The quotes that within the quotation marks are direct quotes from Calvin. It was Calvin that taught God hates the non-elect, not the Bible.

God's hate of the workers of iniquity does come from the scriptures , the Psalms Ps 5:5 ! That is scripture and Paul says of OT scripture this 2 Tim 3:16 so your beef is with the inspiration of God !