Calvinism

[InTheLight]

Hi In the Light.

He responded to the Arminian position, an impossible conclusion if he had read my post.

Do not say he responded when He just copy pasted a standard response to Arminianism.

Yes, he rebutted a standard Arminian viewpoint of conditional election. Probably not applicable to your viewpoint.

What does "sanctification" in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 mean? One, God chooses us individually through the sanctification (setting apart in Christ) by the Spirit based on crediting our faith in the truth as righteousness

I'm sorry... But what are you trying to say? I think you are saying God chooses us when He decides our faith is strong enough. Is that it?

or two, God chooses us individually through making us holy and saves us through faith in the truth. The second view is utter nonsense.

I don't see why it's utter nonsense. And why are you making an ad hominem attack when you are constantly complaining about others doing it to you?

As I have pointed out time and time again, salvation is a noun, and the following "through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth" modifies the verb.

Salvation is a noun, yes. So?
Sanctification is a verb, and yes, "by the Spirit and faith in the truth" is modifying that verb. Which is exactly what I believe atpollard is claiming!

And note there was no discussion of James 2:5.

That's because James 2:5 isn't about election. It's about creating a contrast between people rich in worldly goods but lack faith and blaspheme God and people that are poor but who are rich in faith.

And if it were to be brought up in the context of election the verse clearly says God is the one providing these poor people with their rich faith.


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

 

[Reformed1689]

You see what I'm saying. This is the only rebuttal you give anyone. Nasty little remarks
MB

Of course this is factually not true. I've dealt with the passages that @Van misinterprets. You don't accept it, he doesn't accept it, I can't help it if you want to ignore the truth. Van invents this corporate election. And the James passage is irrelevant to the topic.

 

[Van]

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Why don’t you demonstrate for me what you are looking for by explaining 2 Thessalonians 2:13 from your perspective.
Please address the important parts that you have ignored in your abbreviated quote, such as the reference to God choosing FROM THE BEGINNING and the SPIRIT AND faith in the truth, which at first glance appear to negate your interpretation as a possibility.

Then, once I understand your position, I can respond to it.

Certainly Sir,

There is no need to come at 2 Thessalonians 2:13 from another direction, it plainly says we were chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, a conditional election.

Ditto for James 2:5.

So the election before creation (Ephesians 1:4) was corporate, when God chose His Redeemer, He corporately chose those to be redeemed.

Lets address conditional election as God choosing for salvation individuals through faith in the truth. When He credits their faith as righteousness, He puts them spiritually in Christ. We put our faith in Christ during our lifetime, therefore God chooses us individually for salvation during our lifetime through or on the basis of Him crediting our faith as righteousness.

James 2:5 teaches God chose the "poor to the world" or what the world considered poor, yet those chosen were "rich in faith" and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God.

Both these verses clearly and plainly teach our individual conditional election during our lifetime and not before creation. The condition is that God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness. We can will to be saved till the cows come home, we can profess our belief in Christ and cast our demons or serve the grape juice, but unless God credits our faith, we are not saved, we are not transferred into Christ, and therefore Christ will say on that day, "I never knew you."

 

[Van]

Yes, he rebutted a standard Arminian viewpoint of conditional election. Probably not applicable to your viewpoint

I'm sorry... But what are you trying to say? I think you are saying God chooses us when He decides our faith is strong enough. Is that it?

I don't see why it's utter nonsense. And why are you making an ad hominem attack when you are constantly complaining about others doing it to you?

Salvation is a noun, yes. So?
Sanctification is a verb, and yes, "by the Spirit and faith in the truth" is modifying that verb. Which is exactly what I believe atpollard is claiming!

That's because James 2:5 isn't about election. It's about creating a contrast between people rich in worldly goods but lack faith and blaspheme God and people that are poor but who are rich in faith.

And if it were to be brought up in the context of election the verse clearly says God is the one providing these poor people with their rich faith.
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

I am sorry Sir, but your entire post is nonsense.

Did I address why God credits our faith as righteousness? Nope, but you manufactured a strawman. Not useful except as a deflection.

Next you claim choosing people through making them holy is not nonsense. Nuff said. Then you charge me with bad behavior. More deflection.

Next you seem unable to grasp the verb being modified is "chose." More deflection, more mud in the water.

James 2:5 is about election, showing who God chose, not the rich with worldly wealth, or powerful, or well born, but those "rich in faith," those that love God.

The verse does not say God instills the "gift of faith." Again, you are reading that "nonsense" into the text. There are close to a dozen verses that refer to "his faith" or "your faith" but not one that says "your God given faith." The bible means what it says, and not what you or anyone else reads into it.

 

[InTheLight]

I am sorry Sir, but your entire post is nonsense.

Did I address why God credits our faith as righteousness? Nope, but you manufactured a strawman. Not useful except as a deflection.

I speculated as to your reasons, then I asked you point blank to provide one, yet you didn't. Instead you characterize my question as a deflection. Tiresome.

Next you claim choosing people through making them holy is not nonsense. Nuff said.

"Nuff said."
What an awesome counterpoint.

Then you charge me with bad behavior. More deflection.

Next you seem unable to grasp the verb being modified is "chose." More deflection, more mud in the water.

You're not addressing what I've posted. You're simply claiming victim status.

James 2:5 is about election, showing who God chose, not the rich with worldly wealth, or powerful, or well born, but those "rich in faith," those that love God.

You should read the first four verses of James 2 instead of plucking out the single verse and wresting it to say what you want it to say.

The verse does not say God instills the "gift of faith." Again, you are reading that "nonsense" into the text.

What I actually said:

And if it were to be brought up in the context of election the verse clearly says God is the one providing these poor people with their rich faith.

There are close to a dozen verses that refer to "his faith" or "your faith" but not one that says "your God given faith." The bible means what it says, and not what you or anyone else reads into it.

Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith [NKJV]
Did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith [NASB]
Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith [NIV]
Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith [KJV]
Didn’t God choose those who are poor in this world to be rich in faith, [WEB]


I can understand why people don't want to engage you. Have a great day, week, month, and year.

 

[Van]

Of course this is factually not true. I've dealt with the passages that @Van misinterprets. You don't accept it, he doesn't accept it, I can't help it if you want to ignore the truth. Van invents this corporate election. And the James passage is irrelevant to the topic.

The whole 400 year old fallacy pushed by David is an invention of men. He ignores the truth, and seeks to make scripture to no effect. God choosing (1) the poor to the world, (2) the rich in faith,and (3) those that love God is relevant, no matter how many "taint so" posts are thrown up.

 

[Van]

I can understand why people don't want to engage you. Have a great day, week, month, and year.

Smart move.

 

[Reformed1689]

The whole 400 year old fallacy pushed by David is an invention of men.

What is this 400 year old fallacy you speak of?

He ignores the truth, and seeks to make scripture to no effect.

How so?

God choosing (1) the poor to the world, (2) the rich in faith,and (3) those that love God is relevant, no matter how many "taint so" posts are thrown up.

I said it was irrelevant to THIS discussion because it doesn't change anything in this discussion.

 

[Van]

What is this 400 year old fallacy you speak of?
How so?
I said it was irrelevant to THIS discussion because it doesn't change anything in this discussion.

Take a guess. Take a guess. God choosing (1) the poor to the world, (2) the rich in faith,and (3) those that love God is relevant to discussing conditional election of individuals during their lifetime. Ditto for 2 Thessalonians 2:13

 

[MB]

Of course this is factually not true. I've dealt with the passages that @Van misinterprets. You don't accept it, he doesn't accept it, I can't help it if you want to ignore the truth. Van invents this corporate election. And the James passage is irrelevant to the topic.

There is no invention of corporate election it's just fact comes straight from scripture. There is no individual election and your wrong you have never shown proof of unconditional election. Simply because there isn't any. Even the choosing of Jacob was corporate. In fact there is no proof of Calvinism at all in scripture.
MB

 

[Revmitchell]

Van did not invent corporate election. Such an idea is plain stupid and lacks integrity.

 

[Reformed1689]

Take a guess. Take a guess. God choosing (1) the poor to the world, (2) the rich in faith,and (3) those that love God is relevant to discussing conditional election of individuals during their lifetime. Ditto for 2 Thessalonians 2:13

I'm not guessing anything, I asked you directly.

Those are not conditions of election in their lifetime. We were elected before the foundation of the world. Scripture says that repeatedly. Why do you buck the truth?

 

[Reformed1689]

There is no invention of corporate election it's just fact comes straight from scripture. There is no individual election and your wrong you have never shown proof of unconditional election. Simply because there isn't any. Even the choosing of Jacob was corporate. In fact there is no proof of Calvinism at all in scripture.
MB

Forget Calvinism, it's called Scripture.

 

[Van]

I'm not guessing anything, I asked you directly.

Those are not conditions of election in their lifetime. We were elected before the foundation of the world. Scripture says that repeatedly. Why do you buck the truth?

Saying "taint so" over and over again is a waste of electrons.

I presented the truth, our individual election for salvation occurred during our lifetime after God credited our faith in Christ as righteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, Romans 4:4-5/23-24.

 

[Van]

There is no invention of corporate election it's just fact comes straight from scripture. There is no individual election and your wrong you have never shown proof of unconditional election. Simply because there isn't any. Even the choosing of Jacob was corporate. In fact there is no proof of Calvinism at all in scripture.
MB

I just noticed this, MB. Thanks.
While I believe in both corporate (before creation) and individual (during our lifetime) election, I agree both viewpoints come from scripture. And I agree there is absolutely no evidence for unconditional individual election for salvation, none, zip, nada. And finally, I agree there is no support for the T,U,L, and I of the tulip in scripture.

 

[SolaSister]

Earlier today, on this very forum I learned that conditional election is based on choice meats.

Sorry! Carry on.

 

[Rockson]

Forget Calvinism, it's called Scripture.

UM...Nope!

 

[Reformed1689]

UM...Nope!

Nope what? If you say it's not Scripture then we have a problem. It is strung all throughout the Scripture.

 

[Reynolds]

The whole 400 year old fallacy pushed by David is an invention of men. He ignores the truth, and seeks to make scripture to no effect. God choosing (1) the poor to the world, (2) the rich in faith,and (3) those that love God is relevant, no matter how many "taint so" posts are thrown up.

How is David ignoring the truth in Scripture? I don't necessarily agree with his overall interpretation, but it is a defensible interpretation held by many sound theologians.

 

[atpollard]

And finally, I agree there is no support for the T,U,L, and I of the tulip in scripture.

So anyone that can produce even a single verse of scripture offering support for either "Total Inability" or "Unconditional Election" or "Limited Atonement" or "Irresistible Grace" will have refuted your position?

You set the bar pretty low.

[John 6:43-44 NASB] 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

[John 10:25-30 NASB] 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

[2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NASB] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

[Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.