CALVINISM'S BLIND SPOT

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
First, before I go to war I must either possess an army, or be a soldier in the army. Christ is speaking of service, not of choice to salvation.

BTW, the 'fact' that envy affecting the will of the Jews, or any man, has not yet been established as coming from man, but rather that God would provoke the Jews to envy with a nation not seeking him, even as Israel had provoked Him to envy by them that are not gods.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

But because envy is not of God or from God, envy is not something that God instills in man. It is something that occurs in man based on conditions such as greed, covetiousness. It is the absence in one of what is envied by the one. In otherwords, don't blame God for this situation.

 

[Frogman]

The next few posts are a result of my keyboard or something, aside from this first, I don't know what happened. Sorry.

Yelsew,

Read scripture and pray to God to reveal to you why God said in Deut. 32 that Israel had provoked him to jealousy, which is the basic of envy.

Then come back and argue for the sake of arguing.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Yelsew,

Read scripture and pray to God to reveal to you why God said in Deut. 32 that Israel had provoked him to jealousy, which is the basic of envy.

Then come back and argue for the sake of arguing.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Yelsew,

Read scripture and pray to God to reveal to you why God said in Deut. 32 that Israel had provoked him to jealousy, which is the basic of envy.

Then come back and argue for the sake of arguing.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Yelsew,

Read scripture and pray to God to reveal to you why God said in Deut. 32 that Israel had provoked him to jealousy, which is the basic of envy.

Then come back and argue for the sake of arguing.

Bro. Dallas

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Frogman:
First, before I go to war I must either possess an army, or be a soldier in the army. Christ is speaking of service, not of choice to salvation.

No, before you join the army you must consider the cost of having to go to war to defend your country. Look at the context of this teaching. He is telling them that they must consider the cost of being his disciple. If they consider the cost is too high and decide not to serve, are they His disciples? No. Are they saved? No. The call to serve is the call to salvation.

BTW, the 'fact' that envy affecting the will of the Jews, or any man, has not yet been established as coming from man, but rather that God would provoke the Jews to envy with a nation not seeking him, even as Israel had provoked Him to envy by them that are not gods.

I never said that God is not the one who provoked them to envy by his plan of hardening/grafting. It was God's plan as clearly seen in the scripture. The envy affects man's will. I said nothing about it "coming from man." It is a means God uses to persuade and arouse Israel to faith in the gospel.

Envy influences the will, God know that, Calvinist's deny it.

With Respect,
Bill

 

[Frogman]

Envy influences the will, they are provoked of God, their will is influenced by God. Thanks.. Brother Bill for clarifying that for me.

Study disciple/servant again...o.k.?

You did say Paul had in view to bring this envy from the will of the Jewish people, but God is the agent which did influence their wills and provoke them to envy, through the preaching of the Cross.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Frogman:

You did say Paul had in view to bring this envy from the will of the Jewish people, but God is the agent which did influence their wills and provoke them to envy, through the preaching of the Cross.

Well, envy is in the heart of man but it must be provoked. Ultimately it is provoked by God's plan which includes Paul's preaching to the Gentiles and the Gentiles believing. So, Paul's comment about his ministry provoking Israel to envy is certainly done through Paul, but it was ultimately God's plan as we see from the Prophets.

The envy doesn't seem to guarentee their salvation by any means. Paul uses the phrase "may provoke" and "so as to save some." So it's not as if God's plan was to effectually call the Israelites through envy, but instead to provoke their hearts to envy so that they might believe and be saved. I assume that this could not occur until the hardening has come to an end, as Paul says later in the same chapter.

With Respect,
Bill

 

[Frogman]

Bro.Bill,
I am going to have read your post again...slower, I didn't find anything we would be in disagreement in here.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[William C]

Good, we don't have to disagree about everything.

But the point I think you would not agree with me about is the fact that God doesn't "effectually call" people unto salvation in this instance. He uses the means of "provoking them to envy" which is not at all "irrestiable" or "effectual." It is most definiately left to the Israelite who has been provoked by envy to place his faith in Christ.

The problem that this creates for Calvinism is that "envy" doesn't seem to have a place in the salvation process if man is saved by an "effectual calling" of the Holy Spirit. What purpose would envy have if not to provoke the will of a man?

Envy is a motivator, that is usually used in sinful behavior like materialism. But like other "negative" qualities, God can use this apparent weakness in man to help them see the error of their ways.

For example, I have three children. One of the best ways I found to get one of them to behave was by praising the other two for good behavior. It was amazing how the child who was not being praised would reconize their own bad behavior in light of their siblings good behavior. Envy, or Jealousy is at work in this process to bring about good behavior. God, is the Father of fathers, and I believe he uses this principle in much the same way as he "brings salvation to the people who bear its fruit." (Matt. 21:43) In contrast to those who have continually rejected it and have been hardened as a result.

Maybe, you can find something in there to disagree with.

Bill

 

[sturgman]

I still don't see that Jesus was calling his disciples to repentence when he said to take up their cross and follow him. This would defeat your point anyway. There would be at least two calls, one when they began to follow Christ, and another when he told them to take up their cross? Are their two works of grace? Or is it that this call is speaking of their sanctification?

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
I'm looking more at the text which talks about considering the cost. Christ mentions two men who must sit down and decide whether or not to build or go to war. They have to consider the cost before they make that decision, right? Well, that is presented to a group of people who must "consider the cost" of being a follower of Christ.

Actually he's talking about considering the cost of being a disciple, who has a more involved role than a believer. And given the context of the passage, it seems like the purpose of this saying is to "separate the men from the boys". He pretty much turns to the great multitudes and says, "if you aren't willing to pay the price of being a disciple -- I'm talking even hating your father and mother -- then you might as well take a hike, because this job ain't for wimps."

 

[Frogman]

Yeah, I have three children as well. I love children stories.

You are right, I do believe there is a general call and an effectual call.

What about Deut. 32.21 where scripture says the Jews provoked God to jealousy? Would this also be viewed as to manipulating God? Though I know it would be with negative results. Still, if envy is from the heart of man, and also, is envy always negative?

The word for envy is sometimes translated zealous. Paul means to provoke the Jew to be zealous for the truth which has now been revealed, the Jew, as you know is already of the Covenant people. Paul has spent time showing, however, that not all are of Israel, but in the promise is the seed, Paul's statement, thus spoken is to provoke the Jew to the realization of the promise that he (the believing Jew would already possess). Though he (the Jew) worshipped under the Temple and the sacrifice system, this worship was useless apart from a belief that this system pointed to the time of the Messiah who would combine the Preisthood and the Sacrifice. I still think the statement from Paul is that he hopes to provoke the Jew to envy through the Gospel message, the preaching of the Cross.

Agreement is sweet, though short.

God Bless.

 

[William C]

What does the text say:

"...if by any means I may provoke to jealousy (zeal) and save some of them, who are of my flesh.

The word here is best translated envy or jealousy there is little debate on that due to the usage of this word elsewhere and the context (not to mention the Hebrew word in Deut). But even if you used the word "zeal" the same problem exists for you. This "zeal" still may motivate some to be saved, which is not consistant with Calvinistic teaching of "effectual calling."

Bill

 

[Ray Berrian]

When we are speaking of God of justice, and someone tells us that there is a two level and two different 'calls,' we should immediately raise or see a Red Flag.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
What does the text say:

"...if by any means I may provoke to jealousy (zeal) and save some of them, who are of my flesh.

The word here is best translated envy or jealousy there is little debate on that due to the usage of this word elsewhere and the context (not to mention the Hebrew word in Deut). But even if you used the word "zeal" the same problem exists for you. This "zeal" still may motivate some to be saved, which is not consistant with Calvinistic teaching of "effectual calling."

Bill

It may not be consistent the way you put it (motivate some to be saved) but you're assuming a lot with the phrase "motivate some to be save". This was no invention of his own ("gosh, if I can just make them jealous, maybe I can motivate them to get saved"). In fact, Paul just got done saying that this was part of God's plan:

"But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles."

Can you blame Paul for wanting to be a part of that?

The funny thing about using that verse is that it is a tiny island in a sea of text about sovereign election and grace. Interpreting it in terms of free will would make it contradict all the text surrounding it.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
When we are speaking of God of justice, and someone tells us that there is a two level and two different 'calls,' we should immediately raise or see a Red Flag.

1. If you trust that He truly is a God of justice, then you'll accept however He structures things, even if it involves 3,000 calls. Or do you think you're in a position to decide what makes God just?

2. The expression that there are two different calls is, IMO, a poor representation of what I think is really going on. I don't disagree with the Calvinists on the principle behind the general and effective calls, but I simply would not state it that way because it makes it sound as if God issues a wimpy call designed not to work, and a powerful call that cannot fail. That misrepresents what I believe Calvinists refer to as the "general call".

 

[Frogman]

Paul was jealous of the Jewish religion and by his own will obtained letters against the believers to arrest them and bind them and bring them to Jerusalem.

Then Christ changed his will and he was converted.

But this is invalid because it has too much scripture to support it and doesn't permit men to read whatever they want to into it.

But I got real dang close...didn't I?

Bro. Dallas

 

[William C]

Originally posted by npetreley:

It may not be consistent the way you put it (motivate some to be saved) but you're assuming a lot with the phrase "motivate some to be save".

This is just a quote from the scripture, if you have a problem with it you'll have to take it up with Paul.

This was no invention of his own ("gosh, if I can just make them jealous, maybe I can motivate them to get saved"). In fact, Paul just got done saying that this was part of God's plan:

"But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles."

Can you blame Paul for wanting to be a part of that?

If you read back through my posts you will see that I affirm that this is a part of God's plan. But that doesn't really address the question. Why would God include envy as a motativation for salvation if the will of man play's no part? If we are sovereingly called by God with an effectual calling, why would God desire or even need to include "provoking them to envy so as to save some?" It doesn't make sense in your system.

The funny thing about using that verse is that it is a tiny island in a sea of text about sovereign election and grace. Interpreting it in terms of free will would make it contradict all the text surrounding it.

Yeah, when you are so used to looking at a text from your perspective, it is funny when someone forces you to deal with the problems that your perspective has. How do you think I came across this problem in the first place?

I was reading one morning, while I was still a Calvinist, and I came across this verse and I remember thinking, "What on earth does that mean?" I kinda just skipped it and went on to read the parts of Romans I really like and understand, but it kept bothering me. I began to research it and the Calvinistic responses were very glossy, much like Arminians dealings with difficult passages. I have yet to find any kind of a crediable response to how "envy" could possibly fit into the Calvinistic system.

If someone could point me to a good resource for this I would be grateful.

Thanks,
Bill

 

[Frogman]

If someone could point me to a good resource for this I would be grateful.

The Word of God.

If I provoke you to anger does this mean that I made you react angrily or does it mean that you reacted angrily of your own free-will?

Just a question. In my ignorance I am not qualified to answer it...perhaps you can.

Bro. Dallas