Calvinism's conumdrum, Is God the Author of sin?

[robustheologian]

There is little difference between hard determinism and fatalism. In fact IMO, I find none.
On the mission field--this happened many years ago--a plane crashed carrying a number of important governmental officials. It was a tragedy. In discussion with my Muslim neighbor he simply said, "It is Allah's will."
IOW, if it happened it was God's will that it happened. That is fatalism.

That is the Calvinist mindset. All is predetermined. You block out free will. If it happens: tornadoes, floods, aircraft accidents, and other tragedies, it was God's will, for it was all predetermined in God's will in the grand scheme of his glorious sovereignty. Is that not what you believe.
That is no different than the Islamic fatalism.

The major difference between hard determinism and fatalism is that fatalism has no place for God. Even if one was to hold to hard determinism he would have to admit that hard determinism (which has a gracious God at its center) is better than fatalism which leaves everything to a gloomy and hopeless fate (kismet).

Then to say that the Calvinist mindset is purely that of hard determinism is false. That ignores the idea of soft determinism/compatibilism. Since Calvinists have the Bible as their textbook for theology it would be impossible to deny the concurrent nature of texts such as Genesis 50, Acts 2, Acts 4, and much more.

Now I will say that all Calvinists believe in a type of determinism—soft determinism. The problem with the libertarian view is that it creates a God that could not possibly be absolutely omniscient in order to sustain the libertarian's view of free will. Such a view holds God's will hostage with man's will instead of man's will operating within the confines of God's will...like a wheel in the middle of a wheel (Ezekiel 1:16).

And any Bible believing Christian believes in some sort of deterministic control from God. One who believes in the power of prayer would have to believe in God's will having power over and influencing man's will. Prayer influences men. The wills of men are affected by prayer or else we would not pray for them. To believe in prayer is to believe in some kind of limitation of human freedom, and in some kind of influence upon the wills of men.

Calvinism affirms the scriptural truths of God's sovereignty, omniscience, and providence.

 

[Yeshua1]

That is not true. Adam is not forcing anyone to do anything. He is dead.
What happens (according to Calvinism) was decided before the foundation of the world), not from the time of Adam's fall. All was pre-determined. And that is the same view that Islam takes.
"Que sera, que sera."

no, rather its that calvinism would see the bible teaching us that God permitted BOTh satan and adam to make real moral free will decisions, but once they did those acts, THAT made sure that none after them would ever again have the libertine free will they once experienced before sinning...

Would suggest reading some good calvistic Theologies regarding this issue, and to not make the common mistake of equating God being sovereign to mean that means ALL things ever done were determined and directly caused by him!

 

[Yeshua1]

Page after page of cognitive dissonance. Do they deny God predestines whatsoever comes to pass including our each and every sin? Nope. But then they deny God is the author of sin, according to the logical necessity of the doctrine of exhaustive determinism.

Here are the two views of God's sovereignty:

1. God predestines whatsoever comes to pass and therefore is the author of sin.
2. God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass, and therefore is not the author of sin.​

So simple a child could understand it.

why then are you still missing it?

predestination in the scriptures does NOT equate to God directly determing to cause all that ever happens, just that He has chosen to make sure that all that would happen would be either he causing it directly, or working through permitted decisiond and choices of others, but bring all to pass as he plans!

Do you remember God 'forcing" either Satan or adam to sin?

 

[DHK]

The major difference between hard determinism and fatalism is that fatalism has no place for God. Even if one was to hold to hard determinism he would have to admit that hard determinism (which has a gracious God at its center) is better than fatalism which leaves everything to a gloomy and hopeless fate (kismet).

Then to say that the Calvinist mindset is purely that of hard determinism is false. That ignores the idea of soft determinism/compatibilism. Since Calvinists have the Bible as their textbook for theology it would be impossible to deny the concurrent nature of texts such as Genesis 50, Acts 2, Acts 4, and much more.

Most hard determinists, and some even here, would denounce "combatibilism so much so, that to them, it would be heresy. It is an admission to the possibility of free will.

Furthermore, Islam has a strong belief in a deity--Allah. Their fatalism is summed up in the words: "It is Allah's will." Those are the same words that the Calvinist uses. "This is the will of God."

Now I will say that all Calvinists believe in a type of determinism—soft determinism. The problem with the libertarian view is that it creates a God that could not possibly be absolutely omniscient in order to sustain the libertarian's view of free will. Such a view holds God's will hostage with man's will instead of man's will operating within the confines of God's will...like a wheel in the middle of a wheel (Ezekiel 1:16).

And any Bible believing Christian believes in some sort of deterministic control from God. One who believes in the power of prayer would have to believe in God's will having power over and influencing man's will. Prayer influences men. The wills of men are affected by prayer or else we would not pray for them. To believe in prayer is to believe in some kind of limitation of human freedom, and in some kind of influence upon the wills of men.

Calvinism affirms the scriptural truths of God's sovereignty, omniscience, and providence.

There is a great divide among Calvinists, and they don't all agree.

Compatibilists are sometimes called "soft determinists" pejoratively (William James' term). James accused them of creating a "quagmire of evasion" by stealing the name of freedom to mask their underlying determinism.[9] Immanuel Kant called it a "wretched subterfuge" and "word jugglery."[10] Kant's argument turns on the view that, while all empirical phenomena must result from determining causes, human thought introduces something seemingly not found elsewhere in nature - the ability to conceive of the world in terms of how it ought to be, or how it might otherwise be. For Kant, subjective reasoning is necessarily distinct from how the world is empirically. Because of its capacity to distinguish is from ought, reasoning can 'spontaneously' originate new events without being itself determined by what already exists.[11] It is on this basis that Kant argues against a version of compatibilism in which, for instance, the actions of the criminal are comprehended as a blend of determining forces and free choice, which Kant regards as misusing the word "free". Kant proposes that taking the compatibilist view involves denying the distinctly subjective capacity to re-think an intended course of action in terms of what ought to happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism

 

[Iconoclast]

The Muslim was closer to the truth than you.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The Muslim was closer to the truth than you.

Ohhhhhhh :laugh: badda bing :laugh:

 

[steaver]

The Muslim was closer to the truth than you.

By "truth" you mean Calvinism. DHK's point.

 

[Protestant]

Furthermore, Islam has a strong belief in a deity--Allah. Their fatalism is summed up in the words: "It is Allah's will." Those are the same words that the Calvinist uses. "This is the will of God."

Not true, Pastor.

Scripture teaches two wills of God: His revealed will – Preceptive will – and His secret will – Decretive will.

His Preceptive will is that which commands man’s rightful duty to His Creator and Lord.

Thou shalt not murder is an example of God’s revealed Preceptive will.

The Lord is vehemently against murder as He is vehemently against any sin.

It is the Preceptive will of God which man disobeys daily.

However, His secret decretive will cannot be disobeyed.

It is this will which is always efficacious and effectual.

This truth is seen in Luke 4 when the congregation attempted to murder Jesus on the Sabbath, which was about as contrary to Scripture as one can imagine:

And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.
30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way

The time and circumstance whereby Jesus was to be killed had not yet come, though the people willed Him dead.

God’s decretive will prevailed.

In the instance of the crucifixion wicked men disobeyed God’s Preceptive will.

They were able to kill Jesus because God had secretly foreordained and decreed all the circumstances leading up to and including the crucifixion (as well as preventing His legs from being broken):

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain

Did God sin by decreeing beforehand the crucifixion of His Son?

As Christians we believe the crucifixion of Christ was the most heinous act in all history.

Yet it could not have taken place without the express consent, approval and design of our most wise, holy and righteous God.

Therefore, since our holy, sinless God was intricately involved in the most heinous act in all history which He secretly predestined, why is it so unfathomable to think God has a wise and holy purpose in allowing the infinite other less heinous sins to come to pass --- sins which He dictates as to their severity, timing, circumstance, etc?

To call God the author of sin for other than the sin of the crucifixion is to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.

 

[convicted1]

Not true, Pastor.

Scripture teaches two wills of God: His revealed will – Preceptive will – and His secret will – Decretive will.

His Preceptive will is that which commands man’s rightful duty to His Creator and Lord.

Thou shalt not murder is an example of God’s revealed Preceptive will.

The Lord is vehemently against murder as He is vehemently against any sin.

It is the Preceptive will of God which man disobeys daily.

However, His secret decretive will cannot be disobeyed.

It is this will which is always efficacious and effectual.

This truth is seen in Luke 4 when the congregation attempted to murder Jesus on the Sabbath, which was about as contrary to Scripture as one can imagine:

And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.
30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way

The time and circumstance whereby Jesus was to be killed had not yet come, though the people willed Him dead.

God’s decretive will prevailed.

In the instance of the crucifixion wicked men disobeyed God’s Preceptive will.

They were able to kill Jesus because God had secretly foreordained and decreed all the circumstances leading up to and including the crucifixion (as well as preventing His legs from being broken):

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain

Did God sin by decreeing beforehand the crucifixion of His Son?

As Christians we believe the crucifixion of Christ was the most heinous act in all history.

Yet it could not have taken place without the express consent, approval and design of our most wise, holy and righteous God.

Therefore, since our holy, sinless God was intricately involved in the most heinous act in all history which He secretly predestined, why is it so unfathomable to think God has a wise and holy purpose in allowing the infinite other less heinous sins to come to pass --- sins which He dictates as to their severity, timing, circumstance, etc?

To call God the author of sin for other than the sin of the crucifixion is to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.

 

[DHK]

Not true, Pastor.

Scripture teaches two wills of God: His revealed will – Preceptive will – and His secret will – Decretive will.

This is the Calvinist default on this subject--gotta' have two wills--two wills!
I'll let you in on this news:
God is not a schizophrenic.

He has one will.
Although it is stated in dozens of verses and in many different places it is summed up very well in this one succinct verse:
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
--That is his will.

The Word of God also says:
Jas 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
--Two wills? A double-minded man? hmm.

His Preceptive will is that which commands man’s rightful duty to His Creator and Lord.

Thou shalt not murder is an example of God’s revealed Preceptive will.

The Lord is vehemently against murder as He is vehemently against any sin.

It is the Preceptive will of God which man disobeys daily.

However, His secret decretive will cannot be disobeyed.

It is this will which is always efficacious and effectual.

This truth is seen in Luke 4 when the congregation attempted to murder Jesus on the Sabbath, which was about as contrary to Scripture as one can imagine:

And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.
30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way

The time and circumstance whereby Jesus was to be killed had not yet come, though the people willed Him dead.

God’s decretive will prevailed.

In the instance of the crucifixion wicked men disobeyed God’s Preceptive will.

They were able to kill Jesus because God had secretly foreordained and decreed all the circumstances leading up to and including the crucifixion (as well as preventing His legs from being broken):

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain

Did God sin by decreeing beforehand the crucifixion of His Son?

As Christians we believe the crucifixion of Christ was the most heinous act in all history.

Yet it could not have taken place without the express consent, approval and design of our most wise, holy and righteous God.

Therefore, since our holy, sinless God was intricately involved in the most heinous act in all history which He secretly predestined, why is it so unfathomable to think God has a wise and holy purpose in allowing the infinite other less heinous sins to come to pass --- sins which He dictates as to their severity, timing, circumstance, etc?

To call God the author of sin for other than the sin of the crucifixion is to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.

It is not me that calls God the author of sin.
I am not the one trying to worm my way out of it.
I don't have to come up with God having two different wills putting God into the position of a schizophrenic.
I don't believe in those precepts which, if logically followed puts God in the spot as the author of evil.

Even one of the favorite verses of all Calvinists is Ephesians 1:11
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
--"His Own WILL," Not HIS TWO WILLS.
He speaks of only one will. The Bible only ever speaks of "the will of God," never "the two wills of God." The oft talked of theology of the two wills of God is not biblical, it is a simple way to get around a basic teaching of the Bible and adhering to Calvinism instead of biblical truth.

The simple will of God is:
God's love is available for all. He has provided it for all in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. He desires all to be saved, for none to perish, for all to come to repentance. He is willing to provide full pardon, eternal life, and all spiritual blessings. But on what basis?
On the basis of man's free will, that man freely choose to trust Christ as His Savior. And for that one point--free will--the Calvinist cannot accept, for it will destroy the entirety of TULIP

 

[robustheologian]

Not true, Pastor.

Scripture teaches two wills of God: His revealed will – Preceptive will – and His secret will – Decretive will.

His Preceptive will is that which commands man’s rightful duty to His Creator and Lord.

Thou shalt not murder is an example of God’s revealed Preceptive will.

The Lord is vehemently against murder as He is vehemently against any sin.

It is the Preceptive will of God which man disobeys daily.

However, His secret decretive will cannot be disobeyed.

It is this will which is always efficacious and effectual.

This truth is seen in Luke 4 when the congregation attempted to murder Jesus on the Sabbath, which was about as contrary to Scripture as one can imagine:

And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.
30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way

The time and circumstance whereby Jesus was to be killed had not yet come, though the people willed Him dead.

God’s decretive will prevailed.

In the instance of the crucifixion wicked men disobeyed God’s Preceptive will.

They were able to kill Jesus because God had secretly foreordained and decreed all the circumstances leading up to and including the crucifixion (as well as preventing His legs from being broken):

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain

Did God sin by decreeing beforehand the crucifixion of His Son?

As Christians we believe the crucifixion of Christ was the most heinous act in all history.

Yet it could not have taken place without the express consent, approval and design of our most wise, holy and righteous God.

Therefore, since our holy, sinless God was intricately involved in the most heinous act in all history which He secretly predestined, why is it so unfathomable to think God has a wise and holy purpose in allowing the infinite other less heinous sins to come to pass --- sins which He dictates as to their severity, timing, circumstance, etc?

To call God the author of sin for other than the sin of the crucifixion is to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.

Now you're cooking with grease.

 

[robustheologian]

Most hard determinists, and some even here, would denounce "combatibilism so much so, that to them, it would be heresy. It is an admission to the possibility of free will.

Of course they would have a problem with that. People always seem to call every view but their own heresy. I will say that a growing number of Calvinists coming out of seminary hold to compatibilism.

Furthermore, Islam has a strong belief in a deity--Allah. Their fatalism is summed up in the words: "It is Allah's will." Those are the same words that the Calvinist uses. "This is the will of God

I think you're missing what I'm saying. Fatalism has fate or kismet as the determining factor while hard determinism has God as the determining factor. So it would be better to say that fatalism is summed up in the words: "What will be will be." Hard determinism would be: "This is the will of God." Very close but not the same thing.

There is a great divide among Calvinists, and they don't all agree.

Which is true. So then it makes no sense to keep saying "All Calvinists are..."—you've just admitted that we all don't agree on the same things exactly. Maybe people (starting with you) will stop mass-labeling Calvinists.

 

[DHK]

Which is true. So then it makes no sense to keep saying "All Calvinists are..."—you've just admitted that we all don't agree on the same things exactly. Maybe people (starting with you) will stop mass-labeling Calvinists.

"The Calvinist" even many of them here, want to appear united.
Many of them deny that they are "divided."
Plus, when I read books on Calvinism, and they say: "the Calvinist believes..." which Calvinist are they speaking about??

 

[robustheologian]

"The Calvinist" even many of them here, want to appear united.
Many of them deny that they are "divided."
Plus, when I read books on Calvinism, and they say: "the Calvinist believes..." which Calvinist are they speaking about??

The truth is Christianity theology outside of fundamental points is diverse. Arminianism outside of fundamental positions is diverse. So Calvinism outside of the 5 points is no different.

 

[Protestant]

This is the Calvinist default on this subject--gotta' have two wills--two wills!
I'll let you in on this news:
God is not a schizophrenic.

He has one will.

Not true, Pastor.

The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Let me break this verse down for you:

The secret things belong unto the Lord our God

'The secret things of God' is that secret Decretive will whereby He worketh all things according to the (secret) counsel of His own will.

His secret will is a mystery to man, unknown until it is actually revealed in time.

Paul explains that one of the mysteries God has made known to Christians after the fact is His secret will pertaining to their election. (Ephesians 1:9)

'but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law'....pertains to God's revealed Preceptive will.

God's Preceptive will commands all men to repent and believe the Gospel.

God's Decretive will infallibly effectuates that command in the Elect at the appointed time and place.

They, and they alone, receive an internal call which regenerates them by the omnipotent power of the Holy Spirit in order to birth justifying faith.

 

[DHK]

Not true, Pastor.

The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Let me break this verse down for you:

The secret things belong unto the Lord our God

'The secret things of God' is that secret Decretive will whereby He worketh all things according to the (secret) counsel of His own will.

His secret will is a mystery to man, unknown until it is actually revealed in time.

Paul explains that one of the mysteries God has made known to Christians after the fact is His secret will pertaining to their election. (Ephesians 1:9)

'but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law'....pertains to God's revealed Preceptive will.

God's Preceptive will commands all men to repent and believe the Gospel.

God's Decretive will infallibly effectuates that command in the Elect at the appointed time and place.

They, and they alone, receive an internal call which regenerates them by the omnipotent power of the Holy Spirit in order to birth justifying faith.

When it comes to what could be called the most important subject in the Bible--the salvation of the souls of mankind--God's will is not secret, it is clear and plain. It often is perverted, but it is not secret, hidden, mysterious, or any other such adjective one may want to add.
Salvation is a simple message.
The RCC as well as many others want to obscure that simple message by adding works making it just like all the other religions of the world. We both agree that is heresy.
Early on the "work of baptism" was added perverting the message into baptismal regeneration, another heresy.

Paul himself declared that his message was not hidden with man's wisdom but preached in clarity that all could understand:
1Co 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
1Co 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

It was the simple message of the cross.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
--It was not a mystery unto them.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
Act 17:33 So Paul departed from among them.
Act 17:34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed:
--At the pinnacle of his message was the basic gospel: the death, burial and resurrection. At the point of the resurrection they made their decision whether to believe or not to believe in Christ. Some departed not believing. Others stayed with Paul because they did believe.

The entire message of the gospel is based on one thing: Will you believe this simple message that Christ paid the penalty for your sins? It is not a difficult message to preach or to understand. It demands a response. It demands that man has free will.
The denial of free will by the Calvinist shoots down TULIP.
That is the end-all and the be-all of it. The determinism of Calvinism cannot accept that man has a free will to receive or reject Jesus Christ as Savior. That one point in and of itself affects every one of the points of TULIP.

 

[Protestant]

The entire message of the gospel is based on one thing: Will you believe this simple message that Christ paid the penalty for your sins? It is not a difficult message to preach or to understand.

The Gospel is not a ‘simple’ message.

If preached truthfully it will leave most hearers in a state of mockery, anger, or nonchalance.

Only those whom the Spirit regenerates will embrace the truths of their dreadful sinful state, the holiness of God, the substitutionary atonement of Christ, the reward of Heaven or the eternal pains of Hell.

To preach a message that declares God loves you when, in fact, the wrath of God abides on the unbeliever, who stands condemned before a holy God, is to preach a false Gospel.

Would you not agree?

PS I am glad you agree that our Lord has a Decretive will that is secret, apart from His revealed will.

 

[robustheologian]

When it comes to what could be called the most important subject in the Bible--the salvation of the souls of mankind--God's will is not secret, it is clear and plain. It often is perverted, but it is not secret, hidden, mysterious, or any other such adjective one may want to add.

God's will has different aspects, just like our wills. The first aspect is what we WILL to happen. The second aspect is what we WILL do.

So the first aspect of God's will is what He WILLS to happen. I would even agree with you that when it comes to salvation God's will is not secret. The second aspect is what God WILL do.

The denial of free will by the Calvinist shoots down TULIP.
That is the end-all and the be-all of it. The determinism of Calvinism cannot accept that man has a free will to receive or reject Jesus Christ as Savior. That one point in and of itself affects every one of the points of TULIP.

Either you overlooked and forgot all that I posted in post #110 and #112 or you're just unwilling to deal with it because that brand of Calvinism is too tough to shoot down.

 

[savedbymercy]

My God is the Author of Sin because He is the Author of the Salvation from Sin !

 

[PreachTony]

My God is the Author of Sin because He is the Author of the Salvation from Sin !