-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Calvinism's fatal flaw
- Thread starter William C
- Start date
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Where is the reference that says man has grace? Yet all around you man is able to conduct himself graciously and behave towards others with grace.
Where is the reference that says man has love? Yet beyond anyone's doubt man is quite capable of loving and needing love.
Where is the reference that says man has mercy? Yet the world is full of stories relative to the mercy one man extends to another. Our entire medical system exists on the premise that we are merciful one to another.
Where is the reference that says man is Just? Yet, there is ample evidence that man has the ability to mete out justice, and to demand it from others?
Here you are needing a bible reference that says man has free will? Can you not see all around you that man exercises independence and and has the ability to choose from among options? and to act on those choices?
If you cannot see this, no scripture reference is going to make it clear to you!
Where is the reference that says man has love? Yet beyond anyone's doubt man is quite capable of loving and needing love.
Where is the reference that says man has mercy? Yet the world is full of stories relative to the mercy one man extends to another. Our entire medical system exists on the premise that we are merciful one to another.
Where is the reference that says man is Just? Yet, there is ample evidence that man has the ability to mete out justice, and to demand it from others?
Here you are needing a bible reference that says man has free will? Can you not see all around you that man exercises independence and and has the ability to choose from among options? and to act on those choices?
If you cannot see this, no scripture reference is going to make it clear to you!
Yelsew, don't kid yourself. Where is the scripture?
You say that I have free will. Let me get ridiculous with this for a second to prove my point.
Free Will is the ability to choose to do what I want to do. Your arguement is that we see it happening all around us.
I want to fly. Should I go up to the roof and jump off? (no rude remoarks here) Of course the answer is no, why? Because I am incapable of flying. I really want too though? But it isn't in my nature.
Your problem is that you relate free will to meaning that you can do what you want, and you relate no free will to mean that you are a robot.
For the 100th time. man has a will, but it is slave to his nature. Man can choose between walmart or Kmart. Man cannot choose between being righteous and being a sinner.
Show me the oposite in scripture.
Love ya man,
sturgman
You say that I have free will. Let me get ridiculous with this for a second to prove my point.
Free Will is the ability to choose to do what I want to do. Your arguement is that we see it happening all around us.
I want to fly. Should I go up to the roof and jump off? (no rude remoarks here) Of course the answer is no, why? Because I am incapable of flying. I really want too though? But it isn't in my nature.
Your problem is that you relate free will to meaning that you can do what you want, and you relate no free will to mean that you are a robot.
For the 100th time. man has a will, but it is slave to his nature. Man can choose between walmart or Kmart. Man cannot choose between being righteous and being a sinner.
Show me the oposite in scripture.
Love ya man,
sturgman
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Sturgman,
Humanity is not deity! Humanity is confined to the boundaries of the creation. Humanity was given, by God in the creating, attributes that enable man to do everything that God created man to be able to do! Man did not do one whit of creating and has no say so in what attributes that God gave unto man.
With the exception of the omni-attributes, God gave us all of his attributes, thus it is that we are made in the image of God. Man cannot act outside the constraints in which man was created, and man was not created with wings. Therefore if you jump off a tall building in hopes that you will fly, well, it was nice knowing you.
Man's nature has little if any bearing on man's ability to use the attributes that God created in Him. People with a really nasty nature can use their God Given attributes to the same extent that people who are righteous can use theirs. Evil people exercise their free will with equal ease that Righteous people use theirs. The Fact that man is created and God is the creator has no bearing on this issue whatever. It makes no difference what your nature, we all have attributes we all use attributes and free will is one of those attributes.
Would it surprise you that I agree with you? Partially that is.
Humanity is not deity! Humanity is confined to the boundaries of the creation. Humanity was given, by God in the creating, attributes that enable man to do everything that God created man to be able to do! Man did not do one whit of creating and has no say so in what attributes that God gave unto man.
With the exception of the omni-attributes, God gave us all of his attributes, thus it is that we are made in the image of God. Man cannot act outside the constraints in which man was created, and man was not created with wings. Therefore if you jump off a tall building in hopes that you will fly, well, it was nice knowing you.
Man's nature has little if any bearing on man's ability to use the attributes that God created in Him. People with a really nasty nature can use their God Given attributes to the same extent that people who are righteous can use theirs. Evil people exercise their free will with equal ease that Righteous people use theirs. The Fact that man is created and God is the creator has no bearing on this issue whatever. It makes no difference what your nature, we all have attributes we all use attributes and free will is one of those attributes.
The gospel doesn't require for man to be righteous, Jesus did that. It requires faith. Where does the Bible say that certain people can't have faith? (Don't use the verses that are speaking about the hardening of Israel for the ingrafting of the Jews, they don't apply here.)
Yelsew, it never says it requires for man to muster up faith, and the bible clearly states that faith comes from God. So what is your question here? You still have not given any proof outside of your own opinion that free will exist, yet we have offered a lot of verses that support our side. Which is it? Do we trust in your logic, or do we trust in the numerous verses in the bible? Where do you get your proof that the bible teaches that man has free will. Free will is not in the scripture, except for a free will offering in which the believing child of God can make.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Sturgman,
Your are right, Faith is one of the attributes that God placed in man in the creation. So God did in in fact instill faith in man. Every man ever born of woman has faith. But not every man believes in Jesus with his faith.
God doesn't run around planting faith in man, He did it once, for all! It is no mystery, the meek and lowly know that to be true.
Your are right, Faith is one of the attributes that God placed in man in the creation. So God did in in fact instill faith in man. Every man ever born of woman has faith. But not every man believes in Jesus with his faith.
God doesn't run around planting faith in man, He did it once, for all! It is no mystery, the meek and lowly know that to be true.
I can't speak for sturgman, but I for one agree with the truth in the whole Bible, and that means I also agree with the truth in Romans 1. Indeed, this particular part of Romans 1 describes total depravity quite well:
Arminians will be quick to point out that the word "all" does not exist in the Greek in Romans 1:18. But then one only needs to proceed to Romans 2 to fill in that gap.
And that, Mr. Bill, illustrates one of the problems with asking someone if they agree with the truth in Romans 1. The answer is yes, but don't forget that Romans 1 is followed by Romans 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, etc.
By the way, what I find amazing is that Arminians insert the word "men" in "I will draw all men", and then conclude that it must mean Jesus will draw every man to himself. Yet the word "men" is absent in the Greek. In contrast, the word "men" exists in the Greek in Romans 1:18. Yet somehow this must mean "some but not all men" because to look at it otherwise would demonstrate total depravity, which the Arminian cannot tolerate.
Arminians will be quick to point out that the word "all" does not exist in the Greek in Romans 1:18. But then one only needs to proceed to Romans 2 to fill in that gap.
Whoops! Paul does not exempt anyone here, does he? It does NOT say, "Therefore you are inexcusable when you judge, those of you who also happen to practice the same things." It says "Therefore you are inexcusable for you who judge DO practice the same things." That means everyone.
And that, Mr. Bill, illustrates one of the problems with asking someone if they agree with the truth in Romans 1. The answer is yes, but don't forget that Romans 1 is followed by Romans 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, etc.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
When is the last time you witnessed a Dog, a cow, a fish, a lizard, a Rose bush, a rolling hillside, a cloud, or an ocean wave present for your weekly bible study? I never have, because the bible was not written by or to them. The bible was written to MEN, HUMANS. Religion is for Humans, Faith is of humans, Jesus did not come to save Mount Everest or the Marianas Trench, or anything in between EXCEPT MAN! If you think otherwise, you are sorely misguided, he came NOT to save this world, else the last book in the bible would not tell of its destruction and replacement with a New Heaven and a New earth. He does not care about this world, he cares about the spirit beings that live on this world, and spirit is what distinguishes man from all other species of life.
Pull your cranial orb out of your anal orifice! Jesus said "if I be lifted up I'll draw ALL MEN to me". Men were, and still are, the reason Jesus, come to us as the incarnate savior. Mankind is the ONLY reason Jesus was lifted up on the cross. My Sunday school children know that instinctively, why don't you? Never mind, I know, It does not fit into your Convoluted Calvinist Dogma!
Romans 8 contradicts your statement Yelsew.
The Bible teaches Christ will also deliver the creature (creation). This will be consummated as you said, the destruction of the old and creation of the new. This is also what is done with and in man, our salvation is spiritual until the day of resurrection at which time we will receive a glorified body, prepared for an eternity in heaven.
Soul is what distinguishes between man and beast, not spirit, animals have spirit. I think this was a typo, but wanted to point it out to you.
Bro. Dallas
The Bible teaches Christ will also deliver the creature (creation). This will be consummated as you said, the destruction of the old and creation of the new. This is also what is done with and in man, our salvation is spiritual until the day of resurrection at which time we will receive a glorified body, prepared for an eternity in heaven.
Soul is what distinguishes between man and beast, not spirit, animals have spirit. I think this was a typo, but wanted to point it out to you.
Bro. Dallas
Y
Yelsew
Guest
No, "spirit" is the correct term for the sake of consistancy with the image of God. Jesus told us that God is Spirit and those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.
This definition of spirit is not "oooohrah!" spirit, but rather the very essence of man, that which is the life of the flesh!
This definition of spirit is not "oooohrah!" spirit, but rather the very essence of man, that which is the life of the flesh!
"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen. 2.7
This is the image of God which is spoken of, if it referred only to spirit, then the animal world is also made in the image of God, for these too have spirit. The image of God is the Trinity of man, body (Son); spirit (Father); soul (Holy Spirit); it is the Spirit which quickeneth; the flesh profits nothing. When man fell, he fell from this image, man was created uncorrupted, but corruptible, God is not corruptible.
Bro. Dallas
This is the image of God which is spoken of, if it referred only to spirit, then the animal world is also made in the image of God, for these too have spirit. The image of God is the Trinity of man, body (Son); spirit (Father); soul (Holy Spirit); it is the Spirit which quickeneth; the flesh profits nothing. When man fell, he fell from this image, man was created uncorrupted, but corruptible, God is not corruptible.
Bro. Dallas
Y
Yelsew
Guest
I used to limit the image of God as you do, but Scriptures reveal much more of God than you seem to want to acknowledge.
Yelsew,
You just won't accept scripture alone will you.
The Truth is found only in scripture. It is true that men can know of a supreme being who is their creator as well as creator of the universe, but they cannot know God by this means.
I do believe men know to seek God, but this is not salvation. Salvation is knowing God through Christ alone and man by his intellect cannot know either God, that is the Trinity, nor the three persons of the Trinity.
With Scripture alone man cannot understand, the Spirit is required to open his understanding.
Bro. Dallas
You just won't accept scripture alone will you.
The Truth is found only in scripture. It is true that men can know of a supreme being who is their creator as well as creator of the universe, but they cannot know God by this means.
I do believe men know to seek God, but this is not salvation. Salvation is knowing God through Christ alone and man by his intellect cannot know either God, that is the Trinity, nor the three persons of the Trinity.
With Scripture alone man cannot understand, the Spirit is required to open his understanding.
Bro. Dallas
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Why do you demand that I stick to scripture alone when Jesus used his whole creation to make his points. Even in his discussion with Nicodemus, he spoke of the winds of the earth and Natural childbirth, etc. In his sermon on the mount he told us to "consider the lilies of the field". Yet you tell me that I must stick strictly to the scriptures. You should do as Jesus spoke, Consider his Creation.