CALVINISM'S TEACHING OF TOTAL INABILITY IS UNFOUNDED IN SCRIPTURE

What? Isn't it Calvinism that teaches man can't seek God because of the Fall. Now you're saying that the people in the tower were seeking God so God punished them for it? Your arguments are confusing at best. Please explain.

Uh? Again, were does it mention man's inability to "hear" or "see" the things of God as the scripture does for the Israelites in the texts that I have mentioned. There is no hardening spoken of in these passages. You're going to need to provide me some actual references in the text.

Scripture support for this please.

I love you brother but you have no scripture to back up your claims, your starting to sound like some of the Arminians on this board.

With Respect,
Bill

 

Actually it says that they will hear it, not that they will "listen" to it, and certainly nothing even close to that they will "choose to listen" to it. The greek word is where we get our word acoustics - sound. </font>[/QUOTE]Many translators disagree. The word in this context could be "listen," as the NIV and several other translations render in their translations of this text.

Plus, you avoid the most significant part of this passage in Act 28. Notice what verse 28 is contrasting to:

28:26
when He said, Go to this people and say: 'You will listen and listen, yet never understand; and you will look and look, yet never perceive.

28:27
For this people's heart has grown callous, their ears are hard of hearing, and they have shut their eyes; otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and be converted--and I would heal them.'

28:28
Therefore, let it be known to you that this saving work of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen!"

Notice this passage sets the Gentiles up in contrast to the Israelites. According to verse 26 the Israelites listen but never understand.

Why? There hearts have grown calloused. They are blinded, deaf or HARDENED! What if they weren't hardened?

"Otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and be converted--and I would heal them." If not for their hardening they "MIGHT" understand and be converted.

Then the Gentiles are presented in contrast to the Israelites by saying that Salvation has been sent to the Gentiles! And once again the contrast by saying "and they will listen!"

This passage contradicts everything you're trying to prove. The only way you can support your view is by ignoring how verse 28 is contrasted with verses 26-27, and playing sematical games with the word "listen" or "hear" either way the point does not change. The Gentiles are contrasted with Hardened Israel as being ones who "might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, so that God can heal them."

I know what you really want this text to mean, but it doesn't. It says:
So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.

This means that faith comes from hearing the gospel and the gospel was given to us by the words of Christ. That is all this passage means, nothing more. But even if it did mean that faith ultimately comes from the Word of God, who would disagree with that? The Words of God, which is the gospel, brings faith to those who hear it. The Gentiles will hear it, while Hardened Israel will not!

Oh contrayer! Look again Npetreley! Paul disagrees with you. He uses this passage in Deut 29:3-4 combined with Is. 29:10 and applies both of them to the Hardening of Israel in Rom. 11:8. Try again.

You're not going to wiggle your way out of these passages like you have attempted to do with others. You are clearly trying to dig your way out of a hole that scripture won't let you out of and in the process you are only damaging the text. I suggest you study and find out how "your Calvinistic scholars" handle these issues before you dig yourself any deeper by making up a defense that you haven't fully researched.

With Respect,
Bro. Bill

 

Knock, Knock....who is there?..........SCRIPTURE........Scripture who?...........Scripture that says Israel is hardened and contrasts them with the Gentiles who are not! (Acts 28:28; Matt. 21:41-43)

I'm only stating what scripture clearly says: "Israel is hardened," you are making an unsupported claim that the Gentiles are hardened too. You're always saying to the Arminians, "Where is your proof of free will, its never specifically mentioned in the text." Right? Ok, so where is your proof that Gentiles are hardened? You're avoiding the debate.

First, I obviously haven't convinced everyone. Second, who is the "man behind curtain." I know that's a reference to the Wizard of Oz who was tricking his visitors into thinking he was something his is not. What does that have to do with our discussion.

You and Npetreley seem to think that if a person is educated, knowledgable of the scripture and actually has the audacity to disagree with you then he must be deceitful or tricky. What am I being deceitful about here? I've presented the scriptures and and asked you to explain them within your system of belief, you obviously can't do that so instead you insist that I'm "bad" wizard? Come on. Is that you defense?

Ok? I'll go along with you, I guess.

If Mark Twain would have wrote:
"Huck Finn rebelled against his parents again and again, until finally his heart was hardened to anything that was good, to the point he was unable to even hear and understand his parents instructions, otherwise he might hear them and obey. So his parents focused their love and support to their other child, Jack who will listen to them." I would assume that Jack has an opporuity that Huck has missed, the opportunity to hear listen and obey his parents. OK?

I've never argued that man seeks out God. God has sought out us. How? By sending Christ and then the apostles to spread the gospel to all mankind. The preaching of the gospel is God's way of continuing the work of Christ which was, "To seek and to save that which is lost." (not seek and to save that which is elect)

You obviously don't know what the term "hardening" means in these biblical passages. Let me quote for Walter Elwell, who I believe is Calvinistic:

The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure; it is hard, but not necessarily hardened. Hardening of the heart goes the tragic obtruseness of our inherited condition....Israel's hardening as a nation represents a special set of circumstances...For Paul, Israel's hardening paved the way to a ministry to the Gentiles and was not intending by God to be final, but only until the full number of the Gentiles had come in; then all Israel will be saved (Rom. 11:25-27)"

Not only is Israel's "hardening" not a result from the Fall, but it is "temporary." You assume that the Gentiles and Israel are hardened from the Fall and will continually stay hardened. Both of those assumptions are contradicted in the text. The Gentiles are never hardened, because they have not rejected God's covenant at that point, and Israel was only hardened for a period of time so as to graft in the Gentiles. How can these teachings be reconciled to your beliefs?

Wow! I can't even believe after looking at what you have done to these passages that you are accusing me of poor exegesis. Amazing.

No the word "also" is not in this text.

28:28
Therefore, let it be known to you that this saving work of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen!"

Of course, not all gentiles will believe. Some of them will respond to God's calling others after considering the cost will not. The verse in Acts. 28 says "otherwise they might hear, see and understand..." Notice the word "might." It in no way says they absolutely will.

Yes, there are some Jews who will listen. According to scripture the Jews who are not hardened are called the Remnant (Roman 11). Why are you using the word "maybe"? The scripture clearly says that Israel (except the Remnant) has blinded eyes and deaf ears but that the Gentiles will hear. (Acts 28:28)

What? What am I disproving? That the Gentiles are not hardened? That burden is on you because the scripture never says they are "hardened". I've already shown that in several passages where the Gentiles are contrasted to a Hardened Israel. I've now quoted a scholar who holds to your view of Soteriology who disagrees with you. And on top of all that you still have no scripture that speaks of the Gentiles as being hardened as were the Israelites. You are the one making a new assumption. Not even MacArthur or Spoul to my knowledge teach that the Gentiles were "hardened" as you have stated. If I'm wrong on that, I'll stand corrected, but I'm quite certain that they at least acknowledge the "unique active hardening" of Israel.

You need to so some more research on this subject before you dig yourself in any deeper.

With Respect,
Bill

 

Npetreley,

In your response you spent most of your time speaking about the two points that I said were really irrelevant.

The debate between "hearing" or "listening" is mere symentantics to distract from the issue. I could list about 3 sources that disagree with you about this, but on the other hand I could find a few that support you too. My point is IT DOES NOT MATTER. Nor does the Roman 10 passage matter in regard to this discussion, as I stated in my last post. So let's get back to the issues that are being avoided.

Here are the keys points that you failed to address:

1. Israel was Hardened, meaning they could not see, hear, understand or turn to God even with the gospel being presented all around them.

2. The Gentiles were not Hardened, as was Israel, therefore what Paul and the others say concerning Israel's hardening does not apply to the Gentiles. They can hear, they can see and they can believe and be converted. Hardened Israel, for a temporary time, cannot. No passages of scripture contradict this fact.

3. This Hardening of Israel is not consistant with Calvinism's teaching of Total Depravity. If we are all "Totally unable" to respond to the gospel because of the Fall of man; then the unique and temporary hardening of Israel makes no sense.

Questions for you:
1. Why harden a group of people who, according to you, are already hardened by the Fall?
2. Why specify that the hardening is only temporary if indeed it is an inate and unalterable part of man's fallen nature as Calvinism insists?
3. Why are Gentiles presented in contrast with the Hardened Israel as ones who can hear, see, turn and be healed by God, while hardened Israel cannot?
4. If both Gentiles and Israel are hardened, why would it be necessary for the prophets and the apostles to even mention that Israel was specifically hardened? If it is a common state of all man, why limit the teachings to only one group for a temporary time?
5. What is the purpose of the "hardening" of Israel in the ingrafting process if Gentiles cannot respond to the call of the message any more than Israel can? And what role does the remnant play if all men are "hardened" in the same way?

Your views don't seem to reconcile with the teachings of Israel's hardening. Please explain.

Thanks,
Bill

 

Are you are seriously splitting hairs over the words HEARING and LISTENING?

And you make fun of me for looking at pronouns!

This is silly. Ok, smarty what is the greek word for "listening" and some examples of that in contrast to "hearing?" And after you get off that tangent could you answer my other arguments, or is your whole Theological system resting on how someone translates the word "hear/listen?"

Here is the reason I don't think it really matter to this debate:

I was at a Billy Graham rally and I heard the message.
OR
I was at a Billy Graham rally and I listened to the message.

Are you saying that the word "listen" seems to connote a sense of understanding of what your hearing? Or an act of the will? Like he purposefully listened to the message as apposed to he heared the gun shot. I can see the difference your trying to show, but you're ignoring the context: Look at this sentence as an example:

I was at a Billy Graham concert and I could not hear the message because I was being distracted by Npetreley.
But my friend John, who was not being distracted, heard the message.

What is this sentence communicating? I did not have the ability to hear but John, in contrast, did. That in no way means that he must believe, only that he has the opportunity to hear, understand and turn as the texts says could happen if one was not being distracted.

Do you see the contrast here. One has the ability to hear while the other does not. But in the biblical texts there is so much more than hearing that is involved. What about Israel's inability to:
1. See
2. Understand
3. Turn, or convert, or believe and thus be healed by God

Hardened people cannot do any of these three things. In contrast, one who is not hardened would possess these abilities. It does not mean that all of those who are not hardened will believe, it just means that they will have an opportunity to believe.

So, I'll even go with the word "hearing" instead of "listening" for now. The arguments I've made still must be addressed.

With Respect,
Bill

 

akouo {ak-oo'-o}
1) to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf

2) to hear

b) to attend to, consider what is or has been said

c) to understand, perceive the sense of what is said

3) to hear something

a) to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence

b) to get by hearing learn

c) a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn

d) to give ear to a teaching or a teacher

e) to comprehend, to understand
AV - hear 418, hearken 6, give audience 3, hearer 2, misc 8; 437

Verses where this word is used: (I just limited my search to Act and John)
-----------------------
And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
And could not find what they might do: for all the people were very attentive to hear him.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live

Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
----------------------
Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. -----------------------------------------------------------------------
He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear [it] again? will ye also be his disciples?
-----------------
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me
Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.
---------------

The only significant difference in these words in that context is that “epakroasomai” is in past tence (they contain the same root). The words are used interchangeably with both meaning throughout the entire bible. Yes the word “hear” above can have other meaning but not in this context. Which is why I have said this debate is fruitless! (NASB, NIV and many more disagree with you. The others that don't make the distinction like the KJV use this word interchangable depending on the context.)
-------------------------------
epakroaomai
Tense/Stem Info for 5711 Go to Act 16:25
5711 Tense - Imperfect See 5775
Voice - Middle or Passive Deponent See 5790
Mood - Indicative See 5791
Count – 184
Strong's Number 1874 matches the Greek
For the unrelated Hebrew word for 01874 (Darqown)
1) to listen to


Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Act 19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Act 19:10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Act 19:28 And when they heard [these sayings], they were full of wrath, and cried out, saying, Great [is] Diana of the Ephesians. (Heathens can “listen” too)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Act 21:12 And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem.

Explain how these verses have differing meaning?

Bill