Originally posted by sturgman:
What is funny is that you are asking me to prove a negative as well. You want me to prove that the gentiles are hardened when you said that cannot be proved, yet you cannot prove that they are hardened. "Hi pot, this is kettle, your black"
There is a simple difference that you obviously refuse to see. Scripture says, "Israel is hardened and they cannot hear." It does not say that the Gentiles are hardened, in fact it says "they will hear." And Romans 11:25 has been ignored once again, which clearly says that hardening is a temporary process. So, I have provided support for my claims, I'm still waiting for your support.
1. Israel is hardened. (we both know that)
Why do we both know this? SCRIPTURE SAYS SO! You assume that it must also apply to Gentiles, eventhough Gentiles are contrasted with Hardened Israelites in Acts, Matt, and Romans.
2. Neither of us can prove with detailed text that gentiles are not hardened. (Ibelieve they are based upon the fact that all men are in the same boat, and we have proof that God has hardened at least one gentile, that being pharoh)
No, your right there is no "detailed" verse, but there a several verses that if understood by any reasonable reader would see that Gentiles are contrasted with Hardened Israel. You still ignore these texts.
Also, the fact that scripture spells out Pharoah's hardening actually supports my view. If everone was hardened, why specify the hardening of a particular person who is used to accomplish a specific purpose? The fact that he singles out Pharoah supports the fact that his hardening was unique to him.
If I were a teacher in a class and I said, "There is a student in my class who is a trouble maker, his is always disturbing my class and his grades are horrible." Would you naturally assume that everyone in the class was a trouble maker and disturbing, or that this student was uniquely bad? Also, what if a teacher said, "My first class won't listen to a word I say, I'm not even going to bother trying to teach them anymore, I going to focus on my second period class because they will listen!" Would you naturally assume that the second period class is as bad as the first period class?
Only if you were trying to avoid a contradiction in your system of belief!!!!
3. If your statement is true then all gentiles would be able to hear, and that is not true. Some gentiles hear, yes, some jews will also be able to hear. So you admit that there is a remnant of Jews, but you think all of the gentiles have free will.
"The will hear!" That's what Paul says, not me. I never said that all will respond postively to what they hear, but they will hear, which is better than the hardened Israel who are deafened by the hardening. The remnant, who are not hardened, are not hardened for a specific purpose.
HERE IS YOU FALACY:
You obviously believe that the "Remnant" were hardened too. For the same reason that you must believe that Gentiles are hardened. They are "natural man" who are under the Fall of man and the sin nature, right? So, for your Calvinistic system to remain intact you must believe that everyman is hardened, even the Remnant.
Oh no, will you looky at Roman's 11:7, it contradicts that view:
Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, AND THE REST WERE HARDENED
So, obviously the view that everyone is "hardened" by the fall is not supported here! It specifically says "The rest were hardened" meaning the the Remnant were NOT.
ONLY "THE REST" WERE HARDENED!
THIS DISPROVES THE CALVINISTIC ASSUMPTION THAT ALL MEN ARE HARDENED BY THE FALL!
Timberrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!