Calvinist Church Dumps Free Will Offerings

[TexasSky]

Larry wrote: "Calvinist insist that the gospel must be preached and that the elect must believe for salvation. "

To which I say, "Why?"

If you believe it was all decided by God ages ago, and that man has no responsibility, no will in accepting or rejecting - why "must" they do anything? God, according to Cavlinism, has done it all.

 

[King James Bond]

Helen,

If God loves the world as you put it so much....why did He depend on feeble people like you to save people?

If He does not actually save people but only sits back and hopes people come to Him......where is His power? Is it in you spreading the Gospel?

Is it as if you love people and want them saved more than God does?

A simple point to consider.

2BHizown,

By the way...as usual...great posts!

KJB

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
I read the article and this is one of the paragraphs:

"I want people who come to our church to know that they have absolutely nothing to do with how much money they put in that plate," Galan said. "God elected before the creation of the universe how much money will be collected in each of our offerings, and there is nothing that any human being can do to change that amount. The only 'free will' here is God's."

At least he is being logical. The next step for him, in this Calvinistic logic, is to realize that there is also no need to preach and he should find another line of work. Those who are saved, in Calvinist doctrine, are saved and those who aren't, aren't, and there is nothing anyone can do with any part of it. We are nothing but robots invented by a deity startlingly lacking in the compassion even his robots can show to one another. Strange doctrine...

As always, the logical error with your argument is that Calvinists preach the Word of God because they have been instructed to do so from the Word of God.

Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]TS,

You made the same error Helen did in your post. I, therefore, decided to repost my rebuttal of her error in response to you as well.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by King James Bond:
[QB] Helen,

If God loves the world as you put it so much....why did He depend on feeble people like you to save people?

He no way DEPENDS on me. He is, however unbelievably, willing to use me. Nor do I save anyone. However I can point the way to salvation in Christ. There is no one who has ever lived that Christ did not die for. However it is up to them to accept or reject that gift. I cannot give the gift to them. Only Christ can, through the Holy Spirit. But I can tell them about it and I can show them Christ in my life in kindness and love.

If He does not actually save people but only sits back and hopes people come to Him......where is His power? Is it in you spreading the Gospel?

Are you ignorant of what we are saying or being intentionally mocking? He saves people. But He also allows each person to respond to the truth as that person wills. Those who want truth will be led by the Father to the Son. Those who refuse truth will be given over to the lie.

God is powerful enough to do anything He wants. What He has CHOSEN to do is allow people to respond to Him as they will. His desire is for each of us to repent and respond to Him. He is not willing that one should perish. Not one. But one-way desire is not what He has chosen to do -- He has chosen to prefer two-way desire. He has urged us to seek Him, to discourse with Him, to consider His creation. When everything is finished, what we will find is that there is nothing He has not done for each individual person to invite that person to Him except force Himself upon them. Predestination to belief is the ONE thing He has NOT done. That is why the Bible is full of encouragements to believe, to trust, to have faith.

Is the power of God in me spreading the Gospel? I hope so. The fact that He is willing to use me in any way at all still blows my mind, though.

Is it as if you love people and want them saved more than God does?

That is exactly what is impossible. And that is how I know God loves each of us immeasureably.

 

[just-want-peace]

That is an incredible denial of biblical truth, JWP! Your name indicates your desire to never offend but to always seek peace, no matter how much compromise may be involved!

2BHizown, I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about
.
Denial of Biblical truth? How exactly? I am affirming Biblical truth!!!!

It's true that I wish not to offend and do seek peace, but NOT at the price you assume!

My point is that all we have to do is read the Word as written, en toto, to determine doctrine/truth, as opposed to selecting a few verses that say what you (generic "YOU") wish them to say.

In other words, you can cite a few verses, independently, that seem to prove predestination. Also, you can cite some in the same manner that prove absolute choice in salvation.

However, IMHO, if taken as a whole the overwhelming teaching is that God is the author and encourager of salvation, BUT you still need to accept by choice the offer He makes, and your eternal destiny is predicated on your choice; not His choice or predestined will.

So it's not free will vs predestination, but some balance of the two (again MHO) that is truth.

I don't pretend to understand God's methods or His reasoning, but just taking Him at His word leads me to this conclusion.

Hopefully this will clear up what was a gross misunderstanding of my feeble attempts to claim pure undiluted Biblical truth?

All calvinist have no problem with creation, at all! Did you have an issue or question on which we could elaborate?

Totally lost on this one! Sorry!

 

[King James Bond]

Helen,

He no way DEPENDS on me. He is, however unbelievably, willing to use me. Nor do I save anyone. However I can point the way to salvation in Christ. There is no one who has ever lived that Christ did not die for. However it is up to them to accept or reject that gift. I cannot give the gift to them. Only Christ can, through the Holy Spirit. But I can tell them about it and I can show them Christ in my life in kindness and love.

Do you claim that people have free-will...yes or no?

You claim things that are tantamount to "God does not save people, He lets people come to Him and save themselves".

Is it now changed? Does God actually save people or not? Does the Holy Spirit actually go into people by the will of the Spirit or by the will of people? Does He save or does He sit and wait to save?

My simple point is that your claims are likened in that God makes no effectual affect upon people lest it violate their free-will stuff.

But you claim you are ready and willing to go out and preach to save people all of your own accord and free-will.

It is as if God has to wait for to to plead with Him to use you before He will use you.

So who is sovereign here, you or God? Who cares more about saving people, you or God?

To you, God simply sits back and waits for people to willingly come to Him.

But to you, you are rip ready and full of zeal to go and preach (supposedly).

Are you ignorant of what we are saying or being intentionally mocking? He saves people. But He also allows each person to respond to the truth as that person wills. Those who want truth will be led by the Father to the Son. Those who refuse truth will be given over to the lie.

God is powerful enough to do anything He wants. What He has CHOSEN to do is allow people to respond to Him as they will. His desire is for each of us to repent and respond to Him. He is not willing that one should perish. Not one. But one-way desire is not what He has chosen to do -- He has chosen to prefer two-way desire. He has urged us to seek Him, to discourse with Him, to consider His creation. When everything is finished, what we will find is that there is nothing He has not done for each individual person to invite that person to Him except force Himself upon them. Predestination to belief is the ONE thing He has NOT done. That is why the Bible is full of encouragements to believe, to trust, to have faith.

Is the power of God in me spreading the Gospel? I hope so. The fact that He is willing to use me in any way at all still blows my mind, though.

First, who is the "we" in "what we are saying"?

So I take it by all of this posting of yours God does not save people.

He chooses to have no power to save people. He does not force or make the unwilling willing. He just sits and waits until you call on Him.

I find that I am not ignorant of the things you preach. I am quite certain we could go around in circles for a long time.

That is exactly what is impossible. And that is how I know God loves each of us immeasureably.

Why can't you measure it? I can...according to you it has a measure. He loves us enough not to do anything but let us slip slide away. He loves us enough to sit and wait hoping people will come to Him. What kind of love is that?

Me, a stupid ignorant wretched man shows more love for my children than that. I teach, discipline, and pull them out of harms way.

I say;

But God has shown His love for us in that while we were His enemies He saved us.

And His people are very valuable. How valuable are His people? They are worth the precious blood of His only Son who actually purchased them. And what could be more valuable than the blood of God?

Regards and blessings,

KJB

 

[2BHizown]

just-want-peace, Please accept my most humble apology for unexcusably making criticism of your name! That was unacceptable, please forgive!
Also, it appears in looking back that I misunderstood your stand on the creation account. If so I apologize for that also and should have been more careful!

That said I dont agree with the 'middle of the road' stance for bible doctrine and make no apologies for being a 5 point calvinist! I see it all so clearly in scripture that I have no doubt as to its truth! I know from what you said that you, too believe in biblical truth. We just see the issues differently! I believe God predestined the world, events, the people by His decree before the foundation of the world. When I read scripture I see that in it most clearly, no middle road, no freewill! Man does have a will as given to him by God. That is obvious to all. However, due to being spiritually dead, not sick, weak or disabled but dead, as stated by scripture, he is totally unable to choose God, or good for Himself and until God regenerates his heart he remains dead in sin, condemned to hell. The scriptures are plain, not always to what we ourselves would have written if we'd had the chance. A holy God gave us His words for all of life and godliness and it truly is a most complete manufacturers handbook for all we need to know! Every human is on their way to hell until God opens their heart and eyes. Doesnt happen to everyone but yet everyone gets what they want! Those rejecting God's most gracious offer dont want it to begin with so they just continue on their way as planned. Those who want to know God in all HIs fullness are hungry, thirsty for HIm, His word and are open and thrilled with knowing HIm. Therefore they too get what they want. We cant have it both ways. Its either God's way or our way!
Please do forgive any offense as my desire is to be Christlike, a good ambassador for HIm! Were it not for HIs mercy and grace I would have never been able to know Him and HIs forgiveness, for which I am eternally grateful!
Blessings,

 

[just-want-peace]

Apology accepted, but not necessary, as I've misread others also ; WAY TOO many times!

However, as you say we will just have to agree to disagree here!

I'm OK with that as I'm sure there are other points we will agree AND disagree on.

Rom 1:20 For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.
Rom 1:21 Because, knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, neither were thankful. But they became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

I see man as having a spot of good (in His image, and knowing instinctively that there IS a right & wrong though not understanding it), and God tweaking that spot at some time whereby the individual becomes cognizent of "something" that he desires and searches for, OR decides that that "tweak is just a moment of weakness and he opts to ignore/reject or even counter-attack to destroy.

I guess that this old saying sorta fits my concept here.

"There's so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, that it hardly behooves any of us to complain about the rest of us!"

Yes, we have that old sin nature that absent any wooing form the H. S. will govern our lives. But there is that spark of God in each of us that desires something more and better than we have, and man makes the choice as to whether he follows the lies of satan unto damnation, or the wooing of the H. S. to salvation.

Oh, and thanks for so "agreebly disagreeing"!

 

[Pastor Larry]

Larry wrote: "Calvinist insist that the gospel must be preached and that the elect must believe for salvation. "

To which I say, "Why?"

If you believe it was all decided by God ages ago, and that man has no responsibility, no will in accepting or rejecting - why "must" they do anything? God, according to Cavlinism, has done it all.

Why? Because God said so. What else do we need? That was the way God decided to do it. That's good enough for me.

 

[Helen]

And what is the gospel you share, Larry? If you are honest it runs something like this:

Jesus saves. If you are one of the lucky ones He already chose. If you aren't you are going to hell regardless. If He chose you, then you are going to heaven regardless. So why I am sharing this with you I'm not sure as nothing I say will make one whit of difference in the situation you are in.

 

[King James Bond]

Just-want-peace,

Hey there! How about the following;

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Isn't this kind of clear that there was not a spark of God in us at first? It seems that the law killed us. We were objects of wrath and no more deserving of salvation than any other person.

But it says God made us alive! We that were dead were made alive. By God and because of His grat love for us.

It is not by grace He gave us opportunity.

It is not by grace He gave us free-will.

It is not by grace He waited hoping we would come.

It is not by grace He offered salvation to you.

It reads truthfully;

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

KJB

 

[Pastor Larry]

The following quotes are things from Helen's post that Calvinists agree with.

The Bible is incredibly logical.

... If the Bible doesn't mean what it says, why pay attention to it?

The following quotes are things from Helen's post that she has misrepresented or misunderstood.

Calvinism cannot see this as a logical series, since Calvinism has pronounced a 'then/then' progression, regardless of what the Bible says.

No, Calvinists believe in If/then.

It is this very lack of being Biblical ...

Actually, CAlvinism is tied very heavily to Scripture. We do not insist on our understanding as the measure of right and wrong.

... the lack of hope and meaning promoted by Calvinism.

Calvinism gives no such lack of hope and meaning. It is sin that gives this.

When 'choose' no longer has meaning, when'repent' is predetermined, when 'world' must be redefined -

Calvinists believe that "choose" does have meaning, that "repent" is a biblical command, and that "world" needs no redefinition, it simply needs to be understood as the author of Scripture intended it. Arguing for 'redefinition' is assuming teh conclusion. It is begging the question. It is up to you to first prove what it means before you assert someone has redefined it.

And if a man has no choice in his destiny,

Calvinists believe man does have a choice in his destiny. Because of his sinfulness, the Bible says that choice will always be to reject God.

If God doesn't love the world, but just a few select people, then why try? Why make the effort to search out the truth if it is not going to make any difference anyway?

God does love the world, and sent his son to die for it. He has promised to all who seek him will find him.

Oh how I wish we could get past this type of argumentation. Why is this so attractive to people? CAn we not move on?

 

[King James Bond]

Pastor Larry,

Amen and great points!

KJB

 

[Helen]

Calvinists believe man does have a choice in his destiny. Because of his sinfulness, the Bible says that choice will always be to reject God.

THEN IT IS NOT A CHOICE! It is like giving one of my horses a "choice" between a steak and hay. Guess which one the horse will take? And was it really a choice?

Of course not!

Calvinists are playing with words to the detriment of God's message to men.

 

[Pastor Larry]

And what is the gospel you share, Larry?

The gospel that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

If you are honest it runs something like this:

So now you are questioning my honesty? Why not come sit in some services here at my church? Then you could hear for yourself. Of course, I have also made it clear here, if you would simply read what I say, rather than making it up. That is distressing to me Helen. This is the kind of post I have been trying to get us to rise above. You have no authority to tell me what my position is. It is unethical for you to put words in my mouth. Help out here. Raise the level. Don't stoop to this.

If you are one of the lucky ones He already chose.

It has nothing to do with luck.

If you aren't you are going to hell regardless.

As I have stated long enough for you to know, if a person goes to hell it is for their own sin. They cannot blame anyone else.

If He chose you, then you are going to heaven regardless.

Nope ... You have to believe.

So why I am sharing this with you I'm not sure as nothing I say will make one whit of difference in the situation you are in.

Totally wrong. I share it because 1) it is the message of life to all who will believe; 2) it is the message by which God is glorified and that is my job in life; 3) it is the command of God to preach.

Now, why would you say differently? You know Helen, we really don't disagree on the gospel or the necessity of preaching it. We don't disagree on the state of the unsaved. We don't disagree on teh fact that repentance and belief are required for salvation.

So why do you pretend that we do? Why pretend that I am unorthodox preaching an unbiblical gospel?

Helen, you know better. You don't have to like my doctrine, but don't pretend that I preach a false gospel. I guarantee you that if you came and talked to me, and listened to me preach for a while, you would see very clearly how wrong you are about the gospel you think I preach. And you might even learn a few things about what I believe.

But even if you don't do that, don't stoop to this kind of debate. It is beneath you, and beneath this forum.

BTW, if you had made this post to anyone else, it would be gone since it meets the qualifications of the thread at the top of this forum. It is unethical in its tactics since it attributes to me positions I don't hold. But I will not use my editing power to defend myself, so I simply answered it. Please don't do it again.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Calvinists believe man does have a choice in his destiny. Because of his sinfulness, the Bible says that choice will always be to reject God.

THEN IT IS NOT A CHOICE!

So you get to redefine choice? The unsaved man looks at God and says No. He makes the choice to reject. How is that not a choice?

It is like giving one of my horses a "choice" between a steak and hay. Guess which one the horse will take? And was it really a choice?

Honestly, I have no idea. I am an idiot about horses. Are they carnivores? But the bigger issue is yes, it is a choice. They reject one and take the other, whichever it is.

Calvinists are playing with words to the detriment of God's message to men.

Not so.

 

[prophecynut]

Pastor Larry Quote:
"He has promised to all who seek him will find him."


Whoa there, that's not what Isa. 65:1; Rom 3:10-11 says:

"I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me." NIV

"As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God'."


"Because of his sinfulness, the Bible says that choice will always be to reject God."

Where does it say those not chosen by God have the choice to reject God?

 

[King James Bond]

To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame."Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
"The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone,"and,
"A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

KJB

 

[King James Bond]

Helen,

May I ask,

Does God save people?

or

Does God sit back and not save people?

It is a simple question. If the question is not clear I would like to try and clarify it;

I am trying to ask.....since God loves all people without measure, but He does not actually pursue to save them, it must mean He does nothing at all to save them.

This was kind of what your were putting forth to me unless I am misunderstanding your position.

God has somehow limited Himself so He actually has no effect on people. He wants them to come willingly but in no way makes anyone willing.

My point is that I see how God saves people. Meaning He does not only sit and wait for people to come....although He does wait also.

My point is that in His appointed time He actually has an effect on the walking dead of which we all were. When the law came it killed us. For who could stand up to the laws of God?

The wages of sin is death. The free gift from God is not (an offer for life) or (the chance to be saved) or (free-will).

The free gift of God is eternal life itself.

Would you please clarify?

KJB

 

[Pastor Larry]

Pastor Larry Quote:
"He has promised to all who seek him will find him."


Whoa there, that's not what Isa. 65:1; Rom 3:10-11 says:

"I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me." NIV

"As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God'."

Which is not the point. Jer and other passages clearly say that those who seek God will find him. These passages are perfectly consistent with that.

"Because of his sinfulness, the Bible says that choice will always be to reject God."

Where does it say those not chosen by God have the choice to reject God?

All through it. All men are confronted with the choice to accept Christ or reject Him. They choose to reject.