Calvinist listen up

[MB]

There is no scripture that says man cannot believe with out being regenerated first.



There is no scripture that says a man must be regenerated in order to believe.



There is no scripture that says man must be elect in order to be saved



There no scripture that says the grace of God is limited to the elect only



There is no elect Gentiles in scripture.



Many have resisted God's Grace.



Why persevere when we are sealed by the Holy Spirit?



Calvinism is a false man made doctrine



MB

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

There is no scripture that says man cannot believe with out being regenerated first.



There is no scripture that says a man must be regenerated in order to believe.



There is no scripture that says man must be elect in order to be saved



There no scripture that says the grace of God is limited to the elect only



There is no elect Gentiles in scripture.



Many have resisted God's Grace.



Why persevere when we are sealed by the Holy Spirit?



Calvinism is a false man made doctrine



MB

Did you ever go camping, hunting ... anything outside and have to take a wicked squirt, so you find a secluded area somewhere, whip out your junk and begin your urinating process... only to be met with a gigantic gust of wind. In short that’s you, urinating in the wind!

 

[Sai]

No man can come to the Son except the Father draweth him.
You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.

 

[Dave G]

There is no scripture that says man cannot believe with out being regenerated first.

John 1:11-13.
John 6:44.
John 6:64-65.
Acts of the Apostles 16:14.

There is no scripture that says man must be elect in order to be saved

The saved are the elect.
There is no such thing as someone who has faith In Christ and is not elect.

That's why it's called the faith of God's elect ( Titus 1:1 ).

There no scripture that says the grace of God is limited to the elect only

I agree.
God makes the rain to fall on the just and on the unjust.

As for salvation, there will be no "non-elect" persons in the kingdom of God.
Please see Romans 8:33.

There is no elect Gentiles in scripture.

The Romans believers, the Thessalonian believers, the Corinthian believers, the church at Antioch, the Philippians, the Ephesians, the Colossians and the Galatians.

 

[Dave G]

Many have resisted God's Grace.

Many have resisted God's Spirit in their hearts.
In fact, all men do.

None have resisted God's grace.
Question:

Can you stop the rain from falling?
The wind from blowing?
The sun from shining?
Spring from coming?

Then you cannot resist God's grace, MB.
Neither can we resist the power of God to change a person's heart.

Why persevere when we are sealed by the Holy Spirit?

Because Scripture says that those that shall endure to the end shall be saved, and because there are true believers and there are false ones within the physical body of Christ.

Calvinism is a false man made doctrine

I agree.

Infant baptism is not biblical,
Persecuting one's enemies is not biblical,
and I see nothing in God's word that tells me that a-millennialism is biblical.

It's a good thing that I believe the word of God and not John Calvin.

Do you believe the word of God, MB?
Then believe 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

 

[Iconoclast]

"MB

[There is no scripture that says man cannot believe with out being regenerated first.]

There is no scripture that says a man cannot believe without eating tomatoes

[There is no scripture that says a man must be regenerated in order to believe.]
Not one verse says a man must know how to play chess in order to believe.

 

[MB]

Did you ever go camping, hunting ... anything outside and have to take a wicked squirt, so you find a secluded area somewhere, whip out your junk and begin your urinating process... only to be met with a gigantic gust of wind. In short that’s you, urinating in the wind!

You should of just said I'm right instead of talking about something so filthy. I guess you couldn't find any scripture to support your Calvinism.
MB

 

[MB]

No man can come to the Son except the Father draweth him.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you
.

Are you one of the twelve disciples? Because this is who Christ was speaking to.
MB

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You should of just said I'm right instead of talking about something so filthy. I guess you couldn't find any scripture to support your Calvinism.
MB

Yea .... guess again, I’m not a Calvinist. And your still a filthy mess.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Many have resisted God's Spirit in their hearts.
In fact, all men do.

None have resisted God's grace.
Question:

Can you stop the rain from falling?
The wind from blowing?
The sun from shining?
Spring from coming?

Then you cannot resist God's grace, MB.
Neither can we resist the power of God to change a person's heart.

Because Scripture says that those that shall endure to the end shall be saved, and because there are true believers and there are false ones within the physical body of Christ.

I agree.

Infant baptism is not biblical,
Persecuting one's enemies is not biblical,
and I see nothing in God's word that tells me that a-millennialism is biblical.

It's a good thing that I believe the word of God and not John Calvin.

Do you believe the word of God, MB?
Then believe 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

Don’t waste your time with him

 

[Dave G]

Gentlemen,
Let's all try our best to remember the Lord's words here when we discuss things:

" Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers." ( Ephesians 4:29 ).

And here:

" Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 and walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks." ( Ephesians 5:1-4 ).

While I'm certainly not above lapsing into periods of anger and being tempted to insult someone that I disagree with ( and the Lord knows that I have violated these myself many times, especially in years past ), I see the value and wisdom of His words here...
And I encourage all of the participants in this thread to exercise restraint when it comes to comments directed at someone personally.

In other words, let's be more considerate of one another, shall we?

 

[Dave G]

Part 1:

No man can come to the Son except the Father draweth him.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

@MB,
Let's look at this again, shall we?

The Lord Jesus and God the Father cannot "draw" a person in the same way, and it not lead to Scriptural contradictions.
For example, in John 6:44, we see this:

" No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

As stated, no man can come to Christ ( believe on Him, which is what John 6:37-44 develops ) unless the Father does the drawing.
In John 12:32, Jesus is stating what death He should die ( John 12:33 ), and we also know that both Jesus Christ and God the Father cannot both be doing the "drawing" that results in a person believing on Him, or that would make Christ a liar when He stated, just 6 chapters before, that it was His Father that did that drawing.

In addition, "men" is in italics and not part of the text of John 12:32.
So who are the "all" in that verse?
Of course it is your right to answer that question for yourself and be persuaded of what is correct and what is not, but I see this:

If "all men" in John 12:32 means "each and every sinner who ever lived", then according to the language of John 6:44 and your usage of John 12:32, everyone that Jesus draws...all men...will be raised up at the last day.

Reason:

All who are drawn by the Father in John 6:44 will come to Christ, and all who come to Christ will partake of the first resurrection ( be raised up at the last day, the day of His coming ).
Therefore, if all men are drawn "savingly" in John 12:32, then all men will be raised up at the last day.

That is universal salvation.


Do you not realize that?

 

[Dave G]

Part 2:

@MB
But we both know that only some are saved and the rest are cast into Hell.
Only some believe on Him and the rest reject Christ and His words.
Only some believe the Gospel and the rest think that it is foolishness ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).
Only some endure to the end and the rest fall away or never do profess Him.

Does Scripture explicitly state why some believe and why some do not?
Yes, it does, and in many places.
It's called "election", and it's something that you don't appear to like very much.
Why, I cannot say...

But, in the interests of clearing things up for those that are new ( either to the forums here or to this subject ) and who may read this thread, why do you object to God deciding to save some of us for an everlasting relationship with Him and His Son, and deciding to cast the remainder of us wicked and rebellious sinners into well-deserved punishment ( what you call "Calvinism" ) for all eternity?

I'm curious to know, sir, because thus far in my time here at the Baptist Board, I've not heard anything substantial from anyone, why they think that God doesn't have that right...
When legally, He does.

So far I've heard all these objections:

1) "That's not the God of the Bible..."
When Scripture has been shown that it is.

2) " That verse doesn't mean what you think it says..."
I know of at least one member here who states that quite often, not even realizing that he is doing the same thing or agrees with many of those that do.

3) " That's not fair"!
Yes, it is.
God decides what is fair when it comes to those who have disobeyed Him... whether to show them mercy, or to show them His wrath.
We have no say in the matter, and cannot influence God's will one way or the other when it comes to salvation...otherwise, it wouldn't be grace and it would rely on our works ( our efforts to please Him ) as men.

4) "That makes God the author of sin."
Scripture says otherwise ( James 1:13-15 ).
God, who cannot lie ( Numbers 23:19, Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18 ) says that He does not cause men to sin.

5) "That's John Calvin's god".
I wouldn't know, having made a conscious effort to stick strictly to Scripture in my studies and to stay as far from "Reformed" writings as possible.
To me, it's the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...
Who has mercy on whom He will, and compassion on whom He will ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ).



Are you aware of any others?

 

[tyndale1946]

@MB
But we both know that only some are saved and the rest are cast into Hell.

Does Scripture explicitly state why some believe and why some do not?
Yes, it does.
It's called "election", and it's something that you don't appear to like very much.
Why, I cannot say...

But, in the interests of everyone reading this, why not tell those who read this thread, why you object to God deciding to save some of us for an everlasting relationship with Him and His Son, and deciding to cast the remainder of us wicked and rebellious sinners into well-deserved punishment ( what you call "Calvinism" ) for all eternity?

I'm curious to know, sir, because thus far in my time here at the Baptist Board, I've not heard anything substantial from anyone why they think God doesn't have that right...
When legally, He does.

So Dave I am going to put you on the spot... As long as I have been on this board, I have heard the Arminians and the Calvinist debate the doctrine of election... The Old Line/Old School Sovereign Grace Primitive Baptist brethren I have been associating with since I've been knee high to a grasshopper believe in election too... Is one that doesn't believe in election saved?... They may not perceive election on how I perceive election, but then I and my people don't compartmentalize election like the Calvinist do and we do not look at it from their lens... Instead of election being a remnant, its a multitude, stop throwing Gods children under the bus... Arminians and Calvinist are saved the same way, by Christ... As far as the rebellious wicked sinners deserving eternal punishment?... Don't start polishing your crown, if Jesus Christ didn't saved US, we would be with them... So just because I disagree with a brother, he is not saved?... Sorry my belief goes way deeper than that, in fact, it is in Gods hands 100%... Brother Glen

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

 

[Dave G]

So Dave I am going to put you on the spot

You're free to ask any question you like, Glen.

Is one that doesn't believe in election saved?

Respectfully, I've answered that question before, Glen.

Please see my posts about this subject in other threads.
For now, I'm also going to ask you one...

Is election part of God's word?
If so, then why do some people claim to believe God's word, yet don't believe election?
I'd like to simplify it with an example for illustration.

What does this mean?

" And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:65 ).
What it says, or what John Calvin said and / or John Wesley said that it says?

They may not perceive election on how I perceive election, but then I and my people don't compartmentalize election like the Calvinist do and we do not look at it from their lens

I don't look at it from John Calvin's "lens", just as I don't look at it from John Wesley's "lens".

I pick up the book, I read it, believe it and comprehend it.
Slowly at first and then more and more over time with much study, has been my personal experience.
This is why I always encourage everyone reading these posts to study God's word, and deeply.

To me, it's always been a matter of reading the words, accepting that they are indeed God's words, and not rejecting what is written.

 

[Dave G]

Instead of election being a remnant, its a multitude, stop throwing Gods children under the bus

I'm not throwing God's children under the bus.
I love them far too much to do that.
What I'm doing is my level best to understand the hostility on this board that some people seem to have to the words on the page.

For example:

" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 )

As for election being a remnant, that is exactly what God's word says that it is...
A "seed" ( Romans 9:27-29, Romans 11:1-6 ).
There are not many that be saved, but few ( Matthew 7:14 ).

Also, when gathered together before the Lord, a multitude which no man can number ( Revelation 7:9 ) from every tongue, tribe and nation.

As far as the rebellious wicked sinners deserving eternal punishment?... Don't start polishing your crown, if Jesus Christ didn't saved US, we would be with them.

Glen,
I'd appreciate you not accusing me of that ever again.

I think that we both know that none of us is worthy of God's grace.

So just because I disagree with a brother, he is not saved?

Have I ever stated that a professing believer is not a brother because I disagree with him, or did I instead state that I find it odd, that a person would adamantly maintain that they believe God's word...
and when presented with a verse, why they didn't believe the words on the page?
Are you following me?

As I see it, this isn't a matter of disagreement about an opinion.
This is a matter of disagreeing with what is written.

Sorry my belief goes way deeper than that, in fact, it is in Gods hands 100%

I agree.

It is in God's hands...
100% and always has been.

I don't have the right to tell anyone that I disagree with, that they are not saved.
The Lord Himself does not give me that right.
That is His right alone as both Judge and Saviour to have the final word on.


Good evening to you, Glen.
I wish you well, as always.

 

[JonC]

So Dave I am going to put you on the spot... As long as I have been on this board, I have heard the Arminians and the Calvinist debate the doctrine of election... The Old Line/Old School Sovereign Grace Primitive Baptist brethren I have been associating with since I've been knee high to a grasshopper believe in election too... Is one that doesn't believe in election saved?... They may not perceive election on how I perceive election, but then I and my people don't compartmentalize election like the Calvinist do and we do not look at it from their lens... Instead of election being a remnant, its a multitude, stop throwing Gods children under the bus... Arminians and Calvinist are saved the same way, by Christ... As far as the rebellious wicked sinners deserving eternal punishment?... Don't start polishing your crown, if Jesus Christ didn't saved US, we would be with them... So just because I disagree with a brother, he is not saved?... Sorry my belief goes way deeper than that, in fact, it is in Gods hands 100%... Brother Glen

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

What do you mean by compartmentalizing election? (I do not know the difference between PB and Calvinism, although I have been told there is one)

 

[MB]

Not one post here proves Calvinism is supported by scripture
MB

 

[37818]

There is no elect Gentiles in scripture.

Why do you believe that?
1 Peter 1:2, ". . . Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: . . ."

Colossians 3:11-12,". . . Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; . . ."

 

[percho]

wherefore, I give you to understand that no one, in the Spirit of God speaking, saith Jesus is anathema, and no one is able to say Jesus is Lord, except in the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12:3

I contend, by the word of God, that even Paul of his own free will, by his faith/belief, did not choose to be a believer in the Lord Jesus, God the Father drew him to Jesus and through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, translated Paul from unbelief unto belief.

I believe this took place three days after he was struck blind to show him that he was blind in unbelief.