Calvinist listen up

[Barry Johnson]

The father was not drawing people inn a Gnostic sense .The point was they could come .

Do you have a verse where The Father drew Paul to Jesus? From the bible we can see he heard the Gosepl from Stephen when he stood by whilst he was being stoned .
Later he says " I was not disobedient to the Heavenly "

 

[Barry Johnson]

Lydia was Already a WORSHIPPER of God .
so this is not the same at all . In fact is disproves Calvernism.

 

[Sai]

Isn't that before the cross . Do you have some verses about ' Drawing ' after the cross ?

Once a person is saved he no longer is drawn but must follow the leading of Christ in the Holy Spirit. Because he is now spiritually alive to God he has the capacity to follow God, seek, and call upon the name of God whereas before, because he was dead to God and could not nor would not call upon God, An effectual calling was needed.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Once a person is saved he no longer is drawn but must follow the leading of Christ in the Holy Spirit. Because he is now spiritually alive to God he has the capacity to follow God, seek, and call upon the name of God whereas before, because he was dead to God and could not nor would not call upon God, An effectual calling was needed.

And there is no such thing as an ' effectual call in the bible . Nor is there any verses that the Father is drawing any after the cross. And finally we clearly see the responsibility of man to believe the Gospel when presented

 

[MB]

This is erroneous. Nevertheless I can respect differences.

So your saying that Christ is erroneous. He's the one who said it. I realize Calvinist like your self love to disregard what Christ said and reword or redefine His words to say something else.
MB

 

[MB]

The Bible says it is so.

Acts 13:48 English Standard Version (ESV)

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Just because you've found a version that agrees with you means nothing the literal translation does not agree with you. The Greek it self says differently. Belief always comes before regeneration.
Calvinism is still just warmed over Catholicism. And neither is supported by scripture.
MB

 

[Sai]

And there is no such thing as an ' effectual call in the bible . Nor is there any verses that the Father is drawing any after the cross. And finally we clearly see the responsibility of man to believe the Gospel when presented

Yes it is but the Bible is clear on man’s belief being a non - work

 

[MB]

And there is no such thing as an ' effectual call in the bible . Nor is there any verses that the Father is drawing any after the cross. And finally we clearly see the responsibility of man to believe the Gospel when presented

You are right although you should read Jn 12 32 Christ being lifted up on that cross draws all men to Him.
MB

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

So your saying that Christ is erroneous. He's the one who said it. I realize Calvinist like your self love to disregard what Christ said and reword or redefine His words to say something else.
MB

Here is one thing you should know about me. Don't misrepresent what I have said. I consider it to be unhealthy debate and dishonest. My Bible teaches that Christians don't misrepresent each other.

James 1:26 English Standard Version (ESV)

26 If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.

I have NEVER said that Jesus Christ was wrong. I challenge you to provide evidence to the contrary.

Ephesians 4:29English Standard Version (ESV)

29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

I don't redefine the scriptures. I never have. I challenge you to provide evidence to the contrary.

What is it about the video you object to, specifically?

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Just because you've found a version that agrees with you means nothing the literal translation does not agree with you. The Greek it self says differently. Belief always comes before regeneration.
Calvinism is still just warmed over Catholicism. And neither is supported by scripture.
MB

I can assure you that Reformed Baptists reject the Catholic Church.

If you seriously want to debate this is good faith, show the Greek. My Pastor is a professor of Greek.

From Dan Wallace

Acts 13:48 is indeed a strong verse on God's sovereign choice of those who would be saved. The verb TETAGMENOI does not occur in Acts 20:13, but the aorist form of it does occur in Acts 29:23. There, the middle voice is indeed used and is translated like an active verb. However, the aorist has a distinct middle form that is different from the passive form. The perfect tense, found in Acts 13:48, does not. Context, lexeme, and usage are key. In 1 Cor 16:15, an active voice verb is used. So, neither of these texts offers a real parallel to Acts 13:48. The problem with taking the verb in Acts 13:48 as a middle is that it would have to be a direct middle (the idea would be 'they appointed themselves'), which is nonsense in this context and is extremely rare of a usage overall. I know of no linguistic ground for overturning the traditional translation here. (link)

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

You are right although you should read Jn 12 32 Christ being lifted up on that cross draws all men to Him.
MB

No need, but if it makes you feel more comfortable go for it.

John 12:32 New King James Version (NKJV)

32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

Other translations say "people"

The Greek: uses the word 'pas'.

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

I.individually

A. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

II.collectively

. some of all types

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

And there is no such thing as an ' effectual call in the bible . Nor is there any verses that the Father is drawing any after the cross. And finally we clearly see the responsibility of man to believe the Gospel when presented

Really?

2 Corinthians 1:6 | See verse in context

And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.


James 5:16 | View whole chapter | See verse in context

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.



Ephesians 3:7 | View whole chapter | See verse in context

Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.


As to your other objection I'm not sure I understand it. You appear to be speaking from silence. What do you think Paul was saying to the Ephesians?

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

If I am misunderstanding you, mea culpa.

God Speed

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

The YLT directly from the Greek says it this way.
Act 13:48 And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe—as many as were appointed to life age-during;
The same Paul wrote;
Act 16:31 and they said, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved—thou and thy house;
The only way you can prove Gentiles can be elect is to show a Gentile in the Bible is elect. There is no election for Gentiles men claiming they are elect when they are not Jews will be held accountable.
MB

Maybe try another lexicon. The YLT is excellent, but a good lexicon might serve you better.

Acts 16:31 does not address election. I don't know why you would use it here.

Acts 13:48 in the YLT serves my argument to the max. You see Gentiles were there and there is no way to ignore those facts.

 

[MB]

Maybe try another lexicon. The YLT is excellent, but a good lexicon might serve you better.

Acts 16:31 does not address election. I don't know why you would use it here.

Acts 13:48 in the YLT serves my argument to the max. You see Gentiles were there and there is no way to ignore those facts.

Election has never happened for the Gentiles and you aren't able to prove it did. Everything Calvinist site as proof is statements made by Paul in different synagogues. The only time he spoke to Gentiles was while He was in prison and in Athenians Greece and a few times to the Romans. Never did he call any of them elect. There are no Gentiles called elect in the Bible.
Beside even though you mistakenly claim this for your self. You don't know whether you are or not. Nor can you prove you are elect. What is really laughable is that Calvinist claim you have to be elect to be saved.
MB

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Election has never happened for the Gentiles and you aren't able to prove it did. Everything Calvinist site as proof is statements made by Paul in different synagogues. The only time he spoke to Gentiles was while He was in prison and in Athenians Greece and a few times to the Romans. Never did he call any of them elect. There are no Gentiles called elect in the Bible.
Beside even though you mistakenly claim this for your self. You don't know whether you are or not. Nor can you prove you are elect. What is really laughable is that Calvinist claim you have to be elect to be saved.
MB

You might want to read Acts 13:42-48.

42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”

48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

I can't force you to believe what the scriptures teach. May God bless you richly.

 

[MB]

You might want to read Acts 13:42-48.

42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”

48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

I can't force you to believe what the scriptures teach. May God bless you richly.

The scriptures do not teach Calvinism or Catholicism.
MB

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

The scriptures do not teach Calvinism or Catholicism.
MB

Now you are just avoiding your own argument. All of that denying gentiles can be saved and elect. So yes, even Paul preaches reformed theology.

 

[MB]

Now you are just avoiding your own argument. All of that denying gentiles can be saved and elect. So yes, even Paul preaches reformed theology.

Not true Paul lived long before the reformation and does not teach Calvinism. He taught free choice

2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

No where in the Bible does it ever say we must be elect to be saved. Paul certainly didn't tell the Jailer that when he asked how he could be saved. No where in scripture does it ever say God's grace is irresistible. Yet it does say Trust in the Lord. Believe on Jesus. Christ told the woman at the well That " If she knew who he was she would have asked of Him and He would have given her living water.

Calvinist are rather like Jehovah"s witnesses claiming scripture supports there beliefs. Only in there ignorance of the scriptures does it ever support Calvinism.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

There is no scripture that says man cannot believe with out being regenerated first.



There is no scripture that says a man must be regenerated in order to believe.



There is no scripture that says man must be elect in order to be saved



There no scripture that says the grace of God is limited to the elect only



There is no elect Gentiles in scripture.



Many have resisted God's Grace.



Why persevere when we are sealed by the Holy Spirit?



Calvinism is a false man made doctrine



MB

Wrong on so many levels.

 

[kyredneck]

Instead of election being a remnant, its a multitude

AMEN!