Calvinist Pastors being up front about their doctrine.

[Iconoclast]

steaver

Calvinism teaches that ALL are NOT allowed to come to Christ. That is Calvinism's view of Election.

If anything...SCRIPTURE teaches election.
Calvinists just believe the scripture as taught
All men are allowed to come to Christ.....however they do not want to come

You cannot escape that truth.

No one wants to "escape truth"we want to believe it...correct? Steaver...do you want truth? Or...you think you have it and a Calvinist is an enemy to you?

Non-Calvinist's view of Election is that ALL are allowed, but only the Elect will come.

Steaver....that is the view of the Calvinist. At the time of the White Throne judgement....it will be the same amount of persons saved.
If it were not for election that number would be zero.

Maybe you haven't listened to John MacArthur's sermons. He pleads with his listeners to make sure they don't have an unbelieving heart.

I have listened to dozens of his sermons and he is a godly teacher and has been used much by God.Everyone likes John M. just not all accept his eschatology.

All the while believing in TULIP, knowing full well according to TULIP's teaching that it matters not how much you plead with the person to believe,

Steaver...again here you misunderstand.God ordains the ways and the means.
A sheep pleading with a sinner to come to Christ is a means God uses to get a sinners attention and remove some obstacles.That is why several of you make the accusations like you are in this thread.[Winman said it is cal double talk}..No double talk at all.
Biblical truth is a double edged sword and needs to be balanced scripturally.

he or she cannot unless God ALLOWS them to

.

correct.....cannot......has to do with total depravity,not election.

it ends up sounding pretty hypocritical really. "I beg of you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ". What? Why the begging? Does John's begging help God regenerate?

Men are are responsible to believe so it is proper to urge them to do so.
leave the secret things to God,and obey the revealed things.

 

[Iconoclast]

steaver

Wow, I am surprised that one who prides himself in properly applying the scriptures and keeping them in correct context would consider giving scripture to fellow disagreeing believers as casting pearls before swine! Maybe you do think that anyone who does not embrace TULIP is really a child of the devil?

Steaver...using Mt 7:6 is somewhat harsh.I do not mind an honest disagreement and all the back and forth that goes with it., We are different persons with different personalities so it is to be expected.

That being said, Some of the attacks that come Do not resemble two brothers discussing and studying together. To attack most of the respected and godly theologians in times past,and the current living ones when they are not here to defend their views is not acceptable.

John M would chew up any and all in here who dispute his views on this without working up a sweat,as well as the lordship teaching so called.
he would offer up a formidable defence of his pre-mill also.

To trash these men for unstable bloggers is a great insult and not seeking truth.

If someone trashes them and us 24/7 why should I consider them a brother ..for sure instead of an adversary ???

i have and do disagree with many who do not come across that way...so we discuss instead of fight...

 

[Iconoclast]

By the way, I want to be clear, I am not defending anyone else posts.

I know, but that is good to keep in mind .Sometimes i link several all at once and that is not fair..

 

[steaver]

If anything...SCRIPTURE teaches election.

Amen!

Calvinists just believe the scripture as taught

As do non-cals

All men are allowed to come to Christ.....however they do not want to come

Amen! They must first be enlightened by the Holy Spirit.

No one wants to "escape truth"we want to believe it...correct? Steaver...do you want truth? Or...you think you have it and a Calvinist is an enemy to you?

Correct, do you want the truth? Or...you think you have it and a non-Cal is an enemy to you?

Non-Calvinist's view of Election is that ALL are allowed, but only the Elect will come. Steaver....that is the view of the Calvinist. At the time of the White Throne judgement....it will be the same amount of persons saved.
If it were not for election that number would be zero.

Then we have something in common.

I have listened to dozens of his sermons and he is a godly teacher and has been used much by God.Everyone likes John M. just not all accept his eschatology.

Amen! Love his sermons

Men are are responsible to believe so it is proper to urge them to do so.
leave the secret things to God,and obey the revealed things.

Amen! Well, it seems we have quite a bit we do agree upon.

 

[steaver]

steaver


Steaver...using Mt 7:6 is somewhat harsh...

You used it out of context towards a fellow believer. Condemning one who God has washed in His blood and whom God has accepted.

That being said, Some of the attacks that come Do not resemble two brothers discussing and studying together. To attack most of the respected and godly theologians in times past,and the current living ones when they are not here to defend their views is not acceptable.

John M would chew up any and all in here who dispute his views on this without working up a sweat,as well as the lordship teaching so called.
he would offer up a formidable defence of his pre-mill also.

To trash these men for unstable bloggers is a great insult and not seeking truth.

If someone trashes them and us 24/7 why should I consider them a brother ..for sure instead of an adversary ???

i have and do disagree with many who do not come across that way...so we discuss instead of fight.

PLease present one of my quotes that you consider trashing and attacking anyone. Surely my questioning of John's style of preaching wouldn't cause you to say such things, but, give me a quote and I will consider it.

 

[Iconoclast]

You used it out of context towards a fellow believer. Condemning one who God has washed in His blood and whom God has accepted.



PLease present one of my quotes that you consider trashing and attacking anyone. Surely my questioning of John's style of preaching wouldn't cause you to say such things, but, give me a quote and I will consider it.

If you go back and look....I did not mention your name,did I?

I spoke of those who trample the word of God and other christians under foot .
I think it was post 32 when asked why I sometimes respond with a short answer.

Quote:
Calvinists just believe the scripture as taught
As do non-cals

This is in dispute Steaver..easy to say, not easy to prove.Both views are not the same, both views are not correct.

Correct, do you want the truth? Or...you think you have it and a non-Cal is an enemy to you?

On the grace of God....the Calvinist position is the biblical position.Non cals agree with parts of it, but need to come to agree with the whole thing if they want truth.Some non cals while believers who are still learning about grace have emotional objections that hold them back from seeing it clearly.They might believe many other truths that we can agree on.
Some non cals...and some professed cals.....are not yet christians,that is they are devoid of the Spirit and cannot believe.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I..and some professed cals.....are not yet christians,that is they are devoid of the Spirit and cannot believe.

I dont understand this statement of yours Icono....How can you be a professing Cal & not have the spirit? Are you saying that you are a proponent of Carnal Christians theory?

 

[Revmitchell]

steaver


If anything...SCRIPTURE teaches election.
Calvinists just believe the scripture as taught
All men are allowed to come to Christ.....however they do not want to come

I have to call you out on this one. If God refuses to offer some grace then they are not allowed.

 

[Jerome]

I..and some professed cals.....are not yet christians,that is they are devoid of the Spirit and cannot believe.

I dont understand this statement of yours Icono....How can you be a professing Cal & not have the spirit? Are you saying that you are a proponent of Carnal Christians theory?

"If they could understand the mystery of predestination, and untie the knotty points of man's free-will and God's fore-ordination, they dream that things then would go well with them, whereas there is no more connection between salvation and the understanding of the mystery of predestination than there is between cracking nuts and healing the sick." —Charles Spurgeon, "A Strange Story"

"Orthodox sinners will find that hell is hot, and that their knowledge of predestination will not yield a cooling drop to their parched tongues. Condemning other people, cutting off the saints of God right and left, is but poor virtue, and to have these blessed doctrines in the head while neglecting them in the heart is anything but a gracious sign." —Charles Spurgeon, "Labour in Vain"

"The Calvinism of some men is not the Calvinism of John Calvin, nor the Calvinism of the Puritans, much less the Christianity of God." —Charles Spurgeon, "Laying the First Stone of the New Tabernacle"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

"If they could understand the mystery of predestination, and untie the knotty points of man's free-will and God's fore-ordination, they dream that things then would go well with them, whereas there is no more connection between salvation and the understanding of the mystery of predestination than there is between cracking nuts and healing the sick." —Charles Spurgeon, "A Strange Story"

"Orthodox sinners will find that hell is hot, and that their knowledge of predestination will not yield a cooling drop to their parched tongues. Condemning other people, cutting off the saints of God right and left, is but poor virtue, and to have these blessed doctrines in the head while neglecting them in the heart is anything but a gracious sign." —Charles Spurgeon, "Labour in Vain"

"The Calvinism of some men is not the Calvinism of John Calvin, nor the Calvinism of the Puritans, much less the Christianity of God." —Charles Spurgeon, "Laying the First Stone of the New Tabernacle"

If your going to continue to give snippets of commentary by anyone ...particularly one as esteemed as Spurgeon, please feel free to do so, only add a link to the full sermon so we can all see the full context of the statement.....otherwise this becomes the same tactic that the Lame Stream Media uses with only publicizing their now infamous "Sound Bites"

 

[Mexdeaf]

I dont understand this statement of yours Icono....How can you be a professing Cal & not have the spirit? Are you saying that you are a proponent of Carnal Christians theory?

I think maybe the key word is "professing", but I'm not Icono.

 

[Jerome]

EWF, the author and sermon are identified following the quotations.

I hope you're not buying into the demonstrably false charges made against me by a few disgruntled posters here.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF, the author and sermon are identified following the quotations.

I hope you're not buying into the demonstrably false charges made against me by a few disgruntled posters here.

I judge a person by his or her heart for Christ, not by what anyone says. Christ indicates that it is the fruit that matters.......

And the Father says....Thou shall not bear false witness. Is that not a sin against the Father?

 

[Revmitchell]

I judge a person by his or her heart for Christ, not by what anyone says. Christ indicates that it is the fruit that matters.......

And the Father says....Thou shall not bear false witness. Is that not a sin against the Father?

What they say is the fruit.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What they say is the fruit.

What they say is often their own understanding. Many catholics sincerely believe their understanding of theology....often fed to them by their church.
However if you examine scripture, then whole other theology comes to light.

Same could be said for any interpretation of scripture. However when we as flawed human beings begin applying evil motives or if the individual applies his or her own disruptive practices, then there is a problem.And if an individual will not defend his beliefs with forensic evidence, I view that as deceptive.

 

[12strings]

If your going to continue to give snippets of commentary by anyone ...particularly one as esteemed as Spurgeon, please feel free to do so, only add a link to the full sermon so we can all see the full context of the statement.....otherwise this becomes the same tactic that the Lame Stream Media uses with only publicizing their now infamous "Sound Bites"

I believe the point is: It is possible for one to agree with Calvin on the predestination issue, and yet not be a true Christian.

 

[Jerome]

“Perhaps it is the Calvinistic Doctrine which they have received, and then the five points are as dear to them as their five senses. These men will contend, not to say earnestly, but savagely for the faith! They very vehemently denounce all those who differ from them in the smallest degree; they deal damnation round the land with amazing generosity to all who are not full weight according to the balance of their little Zoar, Rehoboth, or Jireh—while all the while the spirit of Christ, the love of the Spirit, heart of compassion, and holiness of character are no more to be expected from them than grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles! Doctrine, my Brethren, is to be prized above all price! Woe to the Church of God when error shall be thought a rifle, or Truth is lightly esteemed; and when the Truth of God is gone, what is left? But, at the same time, we are grossly mistaken if we think that orthodoxy or creed will save us! I am sick of those cries of, “the Truth, the Truth, the Truth,” from men of rotten lives and unholy tempers! There is an orthodox as well as a heterodox road to Hell, and the devil knows how to handle Calvinists quite as well as Arminians! No Church can insure salvation! No form of Doctrine can guarantee to us eternal life. 'You must be born-again'.” —Charles Spurgeon, "Nothing But Leaves"

 

[Iconoclast]

I dont understand this statement of yours Icono....How can you be a professing Cal & not have the spirit? Are you saying that you are a proponent of Carnal Christians theory?

EWF,

There are many who are born into a Chrisitan Church and in a Chrisitan home.
The parents raise them and seek to impart biblical teaching and bible truth.
Presbyterians with their view of covenant children believe they are already discipling young church members.
Baptists who fight against the Padeo view on one hand look to immerse all their children as soon as the child can say Jesus.
As the children have natural gifts that are given to all men, it is very possible that a child can memorize scripture, go to awana, participate in youth group, learn the "formula" and show forth an outward conformity to the parental and church instruction, and yet never have been born from above by God's Spirit.
Scripture speaks of those who"profess" to know God, but in works deny Him.
It speaks of those who believe in vain. While our intellect and emotions are involved in real salvation.....there is no salvation without the new heart, given at new birth at regeneration.[no Spirit,no christian. Rom 8:9]

No matter what the desires of the parents are, or the level of instruction, God saves any and all who are actually saved.

In recent threads you have seen Paul washer and JohnM, be questioned ridiculed and called Poison for teaching this very truth in local churches.
They are being faithful to the truth of God's word however.

When you see young people grow up in the church , and then go to college or enter vocational life, and then you see a throwing off of their profession, or behaviour that is no different from the world in their ethics....this sadly is many times what is going on.

While the doctrinal teaching by itself is absolute.....just because someone can quote from a cathechism , or scripture directly, does not mean they have it in a new heart which only comes from God.

Are you saying that you are a proponent of Carnal Christians theory?

The carnal christian heresy is just that. If someone can be characterized as that...they are carnal in the heart. Christians can and do sin, but not as a habit and practice. They can commit carnal acts of sin but they cannot live in them for long.

In another thread we see an example of someone who"walked the aisle" and now is drifting into a works gospel. Any who do that for any length of time without pulling out of the error ,have never been known of God.
If God in His providence might use someone that way for a short while that is His doing. I have had a few opportunites to be invited to a RC bible study, but it was not too long before some wanted me to leave:thumbsup: They will not abide truth .

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF,

There are many who are born into a Chrisitan Church and in a Chrisitan home.
The parents raise them and seek to impart biblical teaching and bible truth.
Presbyterians with their view of covenant children believe they are already discipling young church members.
Baptists who fight against the Padeo view on one hand look to immerse all their children as soon as the child can say Jesus.
As the children have natural gifts that are given to all men, it is very possible that a child can memorize scripture, go to awana, participate in youth group, learn the "formula" and show forth an outward conformity to the parental and church instruction, and yet never have been born from above by God's Spirit.
Scripture speaks of those who"profess" to know God, but in works deny Him.
It speaks of those who believe in vain. While our intellect and emotions are involved in real salvation.....there is no salvation without the new heart, given at new birth at regeneration.[no Spirit,no christian. Rom 8:9]

No matter what the desires of the parents are, or the level of instruction, God saves any and all who are actually saved.

In recent threads you have seen Paul washer and JohnM, be questioned ridiculed and called Poison for teaching this very truth in local churches.
They are being faithful to the truth of God's word however.

When you see young people grow up in the church , and then go to college or enter vocational life, and then you see a throwing off of their profession, or behaviour that is no different from the world in their ethics....this sadly is many times what is going on.

While the doctrinal teaching by itself is absolute.....just because someone can quote from a cathechism , or scripture directly, does not mean they have it in a new heart which only comes from God.



The carnal christian heresy is just that. If someone can be characterized as that...they are carnal in the heart. Christians can and do sin, but not as a habit and practice. They can commit carnal acts of sin but they cannot live in them for long.

In another thread we see an example of someone who"walked the aisle" and now is drifting into a works gospel. Any who do that for any length of time without pulling out of the error ,have never been known of God.
If God in His providence might use someone that way for a short while that is His doing. I have had a few opportunites to be invited to a RC bible study, but it was not too long before some wanted me to leave:thumbsup: They will not abide truth .

Thank you for clarifying Tony..... appreciate the time given!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I believe the point is: It is possible for one to agree with Calvin on the predestination issue, and yet not be a true Christian.

Im not drawing that conclusion....are you? I have discovered unfortunatly that there are too many people claiming an understanding of Predestination, claiming an understanding of Doctrines of Grace (these are both Calvinists & Non-Calvinists) who have misunderstood what these doctrines are but attempt to attack or criticize them. That to me is ridiculous.