Calvinist preachers, teachers, theologians

[Blammo]

It all goes back to that overlooked key. Context!

We do not read the newspaper one line at a time. We read the newspaper in context. Why do we not read the Bible this way? Words alone mean nothing. Words in a group apply the meaning and give us context.

Like the English word "bar". Bar can have something to do with a lawyer or a place to drink beer, or a steal round rod object or it can mean to block or ban something..or it can mean secure something. The word alone tells us nothing. Its the context that tells us what it means.

In Romans 9..the context is showing Gods power in election. This is shown in a list of contrast...one of which is love and hate.


This text is showing how much we should love our Lord. Hate is used to show how deep we should go with our love for Him. We can not love the world, or any thing in it, or any person as much as we love our God. That is the context.

What if C-A-T really spelled dog? (Something to think about) Really!!!

With problems like this to think about, how do you think I could ever grasp a concept like "context"? I realize "context is king" and you are the "king of context", but how is a small brain like mine going to understand all of that?

 

[J.D.]

It is ignorant to conclude that synergist covers all non calvinists. God is the author and finisher of salvation. I have never stated otherwise, so please quit referring to me as a synergist.

Don't you hold that we are born again after we exercise faith?

 

[Brother Bob]

With problems like this to think about, how do you think I could ever grasp a concept like "context"? I realize "context is king" and you are the "king of context", but how is a small brain like mine going to understand all of that?

 

[webdog]

First, I didn’t put forth a straw man. I am asking your position, which you do not clarify.

*sigh* You started off with the open theist strawman...

Pastor Larry: If you believe that God knows from the beginning who will believe and who won’t, then you too preach knowing that some in your audience have no chance to be saved. The reality is that your position ends up in the same place.

I clearly stated this is NOT my position, and you sure didn't "ask" either, you assumed. Either you deliberately try to mislead or confuse to make your points.

No, they don’t. Calvinists believe God’s choice and knowledge exists outside of time, but that it comes to fruition in time. Arminians also believe that God’s knowledge exists outside of time, but comes to fruition in time.

Do you agree that "outside of time" is neither before or after time? If so, there can be no "pre" or "fore".

Do you believe God knew from before the creation who would believe in him for salvation, and who would not?

This is dealing with omniscience, not omnipresence. Anything before (a time statement) is dealing with time. I believe God is omnitemporal existing in the past, present and future at once. If He isn't, He's not truly omnipresent.

So explain your view. Remember, that was what I asked for, in order that I would not misrepresent you.

I see you added this after I posted. I already did, and have done so on here numerous times. Read the "4 views" thread in the other Christian denominations forum.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Binding God to time will lead to God picking and choosing who He hates and loves arbitrarily.

So how does God pick and choose who He hates and loves?

It is ignorant to conclude that synergist covers all non calvinists. ... please quit referring to me as a synergist.

So are you a monergist? If you are not a monergist, and not a synergist, then what are you? (Please be familiar with what the two words mean before answering.)

 

[Blammo]

Don't you hold that we are born again after we exercise faith?

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[webdog]

So how does God pick and choose who He hates and loves?

So are you a monergist? If you are not a monergist, and not a synergist, then what are you? (Please be familiar with what the two words mean before answering.)

Until you can stop talking down to me as you have done so often here on the BB, we are done. To insinuate I do not know what these words mean is insulting.

If I'm not a synergist...go figure it out, it's not hard. There are only two options.

 

[Pastor Larry]

You started off with the open theist strawman...

I didn’t start off with it. I started off with a proposition that you denied. So I asked if you believed something else. You won’t answer, for some reason.

I clearly stated this is NOT my position. Either you deliberately try to mislead or confuse to make your points.

I am not trying to do anything but get you to tell us what you believe. That is why I have asked several times.
So tell us what your position is, please.

Do you agree that "outside of time" is neither before or after time? If so, there can be no "pre" or "fore".

No, I don’t agree with that. The Bible uses “before” to designate the time of God’s choosing (Eph 1:4; 2 Thess 2:13). I am not sure why you are uncomfortable using the words that the Bible uses. Sounds like you are too theological for God. Why not simply accept what God says, instead of trying to fit God into your little box?

Secondly, if God’s knowledge is eternal (which it must be), and time is not eternal (which it cannot be), the God’s knowledge must be “pretemporal,” or before time.

Do you believe God knew from before the creation who would believe in him for salvation, and who would not?

This is dealing with omniscience, not omnipresence.

Yes, that is what I said. I am not sure why you are trying to change the subject to omnipresence.

Anything before (a time statement) is dealing with time. I believe God is omnitemporal existing in the past, present and future at once. If He isn't, He's not truly omnipresent.

That’s neither true nor relevant. Omnipresence deals with God’s all pervading presence. Omniscience deals with what God knows. We are talking about the latter, not the former. Please don’t change the subject here.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Until you can stop talking down to me as you have done so often here on the BB, we are done. To insinuate I do not know what these words mean is insulting.

If I'm not a synergist...go figure it out, it's not hard. There are only two options, aren't there?

I am not talking down to you in the least. I think I have been incredibly gracious considering the egregiousness of your misrepresentations, and the length of time they have continued.

The reason I said what I did about knowing the meaning of the words was because I anticipated what your response might be, and I have to admit, it makes me wonder if you understand how "monergism" and "synergism" are used. Below I have given several definitions of monergism that I don't think you agree with. At the same time you claim not to be a synergist. So if you are not a monergist as defined, and you say you are not a synergist, and there are only two options, what should we conclude.

As I have said, I don't really care what you believe. I am simply trying to figure it out. I hope you will help me understand what you believe.

You say you are a monergist (apparently ... I don't want to misrepresent you.)

Do you agree with these statements:

In regeneration ( monergism), the Holy Spirit unites us to Christ independent of any cooperation from our unregenerated human nature. He quickens us through the outward call cast forth by the preaching of His Word, disarms our innate hostility, removes our blindness, illumines our mind, creates understanding, turns our heart of stone to a heart of flesh -- giving rise to a delight in His Word -- all that we might, with our renewed affections, willingly & gladly embrace Christ.

The Century Dictionary defines it as follows:​

"In theology, the doctrine that the Holy Spirit is the only efficient agent in regeneration - that the human will possesses no inclination to holiness until regenerated, and therefore cannot cooperate in regeneration."
​

It means that the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly comes to through regeneration -- and if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, he/she ignore the teaching of the Apostles, for Paul says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10). http://www.monergismbooks.com/monergism.html​

Monergism in Christian theology is the theory that the Holy Spirit alone can act to bring about the conversion of people. The idea is most often associated with Calvinism and its doctrine of irresistible grace and in particular with the differences between that theological system on the one hand and Arminianism and Roman Catholicism on the other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monergism

Monergism is the biblical doctrine that regeneration (the new birth) both precedes and elicits faith in Christ in those whom the Holy Spirit has sovereignly determined to save (John 6:63-65; Eph 1:3-5; Acts 16:14b; 1 John 5:10, 20). http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/monergism_short.html

 

[Brother Bob]

So how does God pick and choose who He hates and loves?

You tell us, its the Calvinist that says unless you are picked by God to have your heart changed then you are going to hell.

 

[jne1611]

You tell us, its the Calvinist that says unless you are picked by God to have your heart changed then you are going to hell.

Well, how else are you going to stay out of hell? The Calvinist preaches that God chose those who will be saved, in time, in eternity, In Christ. So Bob, were you elected (chosen) to salvation in Christ? Were you chosen to have your heart changed? Was that God's choice? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Brother Bob]

Yea, after I believed.

 

[jne1611]

Yea, after I believed.

You were chosen in Christ after you believed? Give some Scripture for that. Oh and, Just curious, did you believe with the faith that God gave you? Or did you produce the faith?

 

[Brother Bob]

You were chosen in Christ after you believed? Give some Scripture for that. Oh and, Just curious, did you believe with the faith that God gave you? Or did you produce the faith?

a measure of faith dealt to every man.
Why do you want to go over the same old thing again?
I chose the good part that shall never be taken away.
The Spirit of God strives with all men if we believe and following that Spirit we shall be born again" I stand at the door and knock and if any man will hear my voice and open the door I will come and sup with him and he with me and I shall go no more out".

The woman with the issue of blood had faith before she was healed and moved out on that faith and Jesus said "thy faith hath made thee whole". How many times did Jesus say that.
Also, Jesus said "except you believe that I am He you shall die in your sins and where I am you cannot come."

Believe, believe, believe

The whole Bible is on faith my friend and without it you cannot please God and if you never please God the you will split Hell wide open.

One scripture knocks your theory in the head. " John 3:16". None of you can over come that one scripture. It will always stand right in your face until you die.

 

[jne1611]

a measure of faith dealt to every man.
Why do you want to go over the same old thing again?
I chose the good part that shall never be taken away.
The Spirit of God strives with all men if we believe and following that Spirit we shall be born again" I stand at the door and knock and if any man will hear my voice and open the door I will come and sup with him and he with me and I shall go no more out".

The woman with the issue of blood had faith before she was healed and moved out on that faith and Jesus said "thy faith hath made thee whole". How many times did Jesus say that.
Also, Jesus said "except you believe that I am He you shall die in your sins and where I am you cannot come."

Believe, believe, believe

The whole Bible is on faith my friend and without it you cannot please God and if you never please God the you will split Hell wide open.

One scripture knocks your theory in the head. " John 3:16". None of you can over come that one scripture. It will always stand right in your face until you die.

John 3:16? What do you think I am? A Bible rejecter? The fact is that I believe John 3:16 10 times stronger than you do. The difference between you and me is I can read the rest of the Bible as well & you read the rest in light of 1 or 2 verses. Any body can see that Jesus is not teaching that God loves the whole human race in that one place when in other places like ch 17:9 he says he does not even pray for the world. Now if you want to make the word world mean all mankind then be consistent, and just say Christ does not pray for anybody! The biggest misrepresentation you can come up with with is to take Gods love and apply it to anyone else than those who have and will believe! Jew & Gentile "world" All else find their place in verse 36 "the wrath of God abideth on them"! Not the Love of God. It will be something for you and me to stand at the judgment and watch them cast to the lake of fire, and hear you tell me that God loves them.

 

[Blammo]

John 3:16? What do you think I am? A Bible rejecter? The fact is that I believe John 3:16 10 times stronger than you do. The difference between you and me is I can read the rest of the Bible as well & you read the rest in light of 1 or 2 verses. Any body can see that Jesus is not teaching that God loves the whole human race in that one place when in other places like ch 17:9 he says he does not even pray for the world. Now if you want to make the word world mean all mankind then be consistent, and just say Christ does not pray for anybody! The biggest misrepresentation you can come up with with is to take Gods love and apply it to anyone else than those who have and will believe! Jew & Gentile "world" All else find their place in verse 36 "the wrath of God abideth on them"! Not the Love of God. It will be something for you and me to stand at the judgment and watch them cast to the lake of fire, and hear you tell me that God loves them.

Does it make any difference that the verse says "loved"? That is past tense, right? We were all dead in trespasses and sins, God loved us, and desires that we believe and be saved. We must turn from our sinful and rebellious ways toward God, through faith in His Son.

 

[Brother Bob]

jne;
You are the one who refuses to take by faith, through faith, thy faith, except you believe, you must believe, after you believe, paid a ramson for all men, come unto me all ye ends of the world, not His will that any perish, I stand at the door and know and if any man, on and on and on.
Also, if you say John 3:16 mean that God did not love the whole word then you are just plain wrong.

 

[jne1611]

Does it make any difference that the verse says "loved"? That is past tense, right? We were all dead in trespasses and sins, God loved us, and desires that we believe and be saved. We must turn from our sinful and rebellious ways toward God, though His Son.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Notice in this verse, Christ identifies those who have not even believed as yet, his sheep.
This is what I mean. Yes in our sins God hates even His us! But through His election of us in Christ, He loves us. Christ is the only one who stands between anyone and eternal wrath. That is why anyone who was not chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world has no claim on the love of God.

 

[jne1611]

jne;
You are the one who refuses to take by faith, through faith, thy faith, except you believe, you must believe, after you believe, paid a ramson for all men, come unto me all ye ends of the world, not His will that any perish, I stand at the door and know and if any man, on and on and on.
Also, if you say John 3:16 mean that God did not love the whole word then you are just plain wrong.

Ok Bob. Guess you can throw Prov 16:4 right out the door.
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

And I guess this verse is meaningless as well.
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Brother Bob]

Oh well, you calvinist sit and watch the babies die.