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These are the elect.</font>[/QUOTE]Well what about those that he invited first? He came unto his own but his own accepted him not! Now I don't know about you but it seems to me that "his own" means they were elect! And indeed scriptures say that the Jews, "his own", are the elect of God!</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />he invites others who are not his friends and neighbors, and all who come dressed in proper attire "become invited guests",
Yes.Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Did you notice what God said he does about man's heart?
Yes.Did you notice that God gives to man according to MAN's ways!
No.That right there dispels one of your doctrines of Grace!
Correct... your almost there.If man is bad as you say all men are Totally Depraved, just what good could can come to man according to his depravity? None whatever,
That's called mercy... and in the temporal sense God demonstrates it even toward the lost by not immediately judging them.yet we see that God has not necessarily given bad to all man kind.
Yes. He has or else will. He meted out justice for the sins of the saved against our Substitute. And this is the basis for grace.He has indeed not meted out the justice that man's sins merit.
You still haven't answered the question of why some will seek Him but others won't.God is being good to man so that man will indeed seek after him.
All of them. It isn't necessarily conscious but all sinners seek their own will and glory... even when doing what would be deemed good works. That is sin... it misses the mark of glorifying God.How many unbelievers do you know who continually seek to be bad?
60 million people died in WWII alone. More Christians were martyred in the 20th century than all the previous centuries combined. Take the poll of your choice that deals with the moral climate in America and American ideals about- sex, violence, lying, cheating, stealing, etc.Let's see some real, confirmable, statistics if man is so bad!
But you haven't done it. BTW, total depravity has a very specific meaning as used by calvinists. Are you sure you know it? Please be honest and don't try to make up your own definition then ascribe it to calvinists.I am simply refuting Total Depravity!
How can I show you how to think rightly about God and his word if I do not point out how you are thinking wrongly about it?Wes, Rather than this type of non-sense, if you really think I am wrong then show me how rather than just telling me repeatedly that I am wrong and you are right.
These are the elect.</font>[/QUOTE]Well what about those that he invited first? He came unto his own but his own accepted him not! Now I don't know about you but it seems to me that "his own" means they were elect! And indeed scriptures say that the Jews, "his own", are the elect of God! </font>[/QUOTE] Stripping scripture out of its context doesn't contribute to your argument. As someone explained earlier, the Jews were "elect" as a nation chosen by God to preach His law in the OT and to ultimately provide the world's Savior.Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />he invites others who are not his friends and neighbors, and all who come dressed in proper attire "become invited guests",
Because I do accept that scripture as well as the ones that clearly declare that God foreknew and predestined those who believe to believe.So it seems to me that you are saying that, "Whosoever believeth in Him", are the elect. Is that true? If yes, then why are you calling yourself a Calvinist?
How can I show you how to think rightly about God and his word if I do not point out how you are thinking wrongly about it? </font>[/QUOTE]By proving that I am thinking wrongly rather than just declaring it matter of factly as if your utterance makes it so.Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Wes, Rather than this type of non-sense, if you really think I am wrong then show me how rather than just telling me repeatedly that I am wrong and you are right.
Then you have no imperical evidence to support your "Totally Depraved" theory? What good is a theory if you have nothing to support it?The only reliable standard for salvation or the spiritual nature of men is the Bible.
Then you have no imperical evidence to support your "Totally Depraved" theory? What good is a theory if you have nothing to support it?</font>[/QUOTE] Yes. The Bible is the greatest empirical evidence that can be pointed to... especially on matters of man's sin nature and the means of salvation.Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The only reliable standard for salvation or the spiritual nature of men is the Bible.
Man's use of statistics may be wrong... depending on the questions asked. In the 70's, studies showed that children would be better off if parents in a bad marriage divorced. In the 90's, a new study showed that when parents stay together, even in a bad marriage, the child benefits.Now you will notice that I do not say the scriptures are wrong. I am saying that man's use of the scriptures may very well be wrong!
You can if you look for it. It all goes back to what you put your faith in- God's Word or man's interpretations of data?I am saying that I believe we must be able to see the evidence of what is said in scripture.
Not so. I Corinthians 4 clearly teaches that God looks at motives rather than just the activities of men only.Granted there are things that we cannot see such as the spirit of man, but man's behavior is the manifestation of what is in his spirit!
There is heaps of evidence to demonstrate that every part of man has been effected by sin.So if man's spirit is totally depraved, there has to be imperical evidence to support that thought. That's what I am asking you to provide!
Ordinary human beings endorsed the holocaust. Ordinary human beings engage in and rationalize sexual behavior forbidden by God... but thought of as "good" by the world. Many think abortion is "good".No we are not talking about "nationalistic" or "geo-polical" activities, but rather the activities of the ordinary human being.
This demonstrates His mercy. But 2 Peter tells us that a day is coming when He will no longer hold back His wrath against man's sinfulness.If there were that many TOTALLY DEPRAVED humans any where, God would destroy it completely and utterly, like he did Sodom and Gomorrah and the earth in Noah's day.
Again, 2 Peter says that He will do just that.He made it, he can certainly destroy it.
I don't think so... but you might be if you carried some of your arguments to their only logical conclusion.Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Am I a universalist?
That's what I'm asking you to provide!There is heaps of evidence to demonstrate that every part of man has been effected by sin.
That begs the question then, What is the ONLY logical conclusion of any of my arguments? And What makes it logical? Isn't that the same as a "predefined conclusion", one that one expects me to arrive at?I don't think so... but you might be if you carried some of your arguments to their only logical conclusion
That begs the question then, What is the ONLY logical conclusion of any of my arguments? And What makes it logical? Isn't that the same as a "predefined conclusion", one that one expects me to arrive at? </font>[/QUOTE]No. And remember I said some of your arguments.Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I don't think so... but you might be if you carried some of your arguments to their only logical conclusion
Boy, you make it easy! Yes, count the number of people who profess to believe in Jesus, and you have the number of unregenerate man who believed in Jesus while in an unregenerate state, and by believing have come to righteousness in the same manner that Abraham's faith was counted unto him as righteousness.Originally posted by Scott J:
I have!!! Illegitimacy rates both among admitted unbelievers and professing believers. Apostacy within the church. Murder rates. Drug usage. Crime. Selfishness. Divorce. Child abuse. Lying. Cheating. Stealing....
All of these exist and are expressed in the characters of men. The fundamental issue that makes man depraved is who he accepts as the ultimate sovereign authority in his life- God or himself.
Good things done for selfish or prideful reasons are sinful. They are attempts to glorify man instead of God.
But you are evading- Can you show a statistic that demonstrates that unregenerate men do anything that is righteous in God's eyes?
Scriptures say that Christ died so that we might have life! Atonement removed the penalty of sin from men so that through faith man has life.If Christ died for the sin of the world and that sacrifice was sufficient for covering sin then why doesn't it? If it takes a good choice by a man then it really isn't sufficient, is it? If it is sufficient then it requires nothing else.
You are right. And left to his own unregenerate will, man will always reject the gospel in favor of his self-will.Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
The playing field is level and even now, because works do not bring salvation, only faith brings salvation, no man is prevented from having everlasting life by anything other than his own personal choice to believe or not believe.
Not according to Romans 8 and various other scriptures.And all mankind can have faith in God if they choose to do so.
That would be a question better answered by you.Who can say one's faith is better than another's?
Actually there is as it pertains to submissiveness to God's will.Are there degrees of faith?
The answer is the same as the similar question about when a person sins - does God know that they will make that decision? If so....... Yet scripture says when we are tempted, we are also given the possibility of escape. We have a *real* choice, not a predetermined outcome, even though God knows that outcome. And God is powerful enough to know how to allow this scenario that to us finite beings (who live in and have our thinking restricted by finite space-time) seems like a paradox.Originally posted by Scott J:
Wes, I have never had someone of your position answer this question adequately:
If faith is a decision made by a person, does God know that they will make that decision? If so, then how can you contend that He didn't ordain their personal salvation since every circumstance in their life is subject to His will... including their personality and every other factor that might effect a choice?
What is there that OMNISCIENT God does not know?Originally posted by Scott J:
Wes, I have never had someone of your position answer this question adequately:
If faith is a decision made by a person, does God know that they will make that decision? If so, then how can you contend that He didn't ordain their personal salvation since every circumstance in their life is subject to His will... including their personality and every other factor that might effect a choice?