Calvinistic trend in the SBC

[PK]

So answer this question. Why did God have to put the angel with a flaming sword outside the garden after he DROVE Adam and Eve out? Maybe because they had the free will and the desire to go back to where they met with God on a daily basis?

 

[Dale-c]

So answer this question. Why did God have to put the angel with a flaming sword outside the garden after he DROVE Adam and Eve out? Maybe because they had the free will and the desire to go back to where they met with God on a daily basis?

Probably since if He had not, they would have gone back in.
Seems pretty obvious to me.
What does this prove or disprove?

 

[reformedbeliever]

So answer this question. Why did God have to put the angel with a flaming sword outside the garden after he DROVE Adam and Eve out? Maybe because they had the free will and the desire to go back to where they met with God on a daily basis?

Of course people make choices... no Calvinist I know denies that. Is that what you mean by free will? They may have the desire, and even choose to go back, but God still sovereignly prevents them from doing so huh? Seems as if God gets what He wills.

 

[Dale-c]

Seems as if God gets what He wills.

And He almost always uses normal means to accomplish that.
He uses the preaching of the Gospel to draw men to salvation.
He uses the work and sweat of a mans brow to provide for his family.

 

[Dale-c]

This is from the London Baptist Confession:

CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE

Paragraph 1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.4
1 Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15,18
2 James 1:13; 1 John 1:5
3 Acts 4:27,28; John 19:11
4 Num. 23:19; Eph. 1:3-5

Paragraph 2. Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions,5 yet hath He not decreed anything, because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.6
5 Acts 15:18
6 Rom. 9:11,13,16,18

Paragraph 3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ,7 to the praise of His glorious grace;8 others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.9
7 I Tim. 5:21; Matt. 25:34
8 Eph. 1:5,6
9 Rom. 9:22,23; Jude 4

Paragraph 4. These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.10
10 2 Tim. 2:19; John 13:18

Paragraph 5. Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love,11 without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving Him thereunto.12
11 Eph. 1:4, 9, 11; Rom. 8:30; 2 Tim. 1:9; I Thess. 5:9
12 Rom. 9:13,16; Eph. 2:5,12

Paragraph 6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so He hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto;13 wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,14 are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,15 and kept by His power through faith unto salvation;16 neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.17
13 1 Pet. 1:2; 2; Thess. 2:13
14 1 Thess. 5:9, 10
15 Rom. 8:30; 2 Thess. 2:13
16 1 Pet. 1:5
17 John 10:26, 17:9, 6:64

Paragraph 7. The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election;18 so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise,19 reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility,20 diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.21
18 1 Thess. 1:4,5; 2 Pet. 1:10
19 Eph. 1:6; Rom. 11:33
20 Rom. 11:5,6,20
21 Luke 10:20

 

[Dale-c]

Here is the chapter on free will:

CHAPTER 9; OF FREE WILL

Paragraph 1. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.1
1 Matt. 17:12; James 1:14; Deut. 30:19

Paragraph 2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well-pleasing to God,2 but yet was unstable, so that he might fall from it.3
2 Eccles. 7:29
3 Gen. 3:6

Paragraph 3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation;4 so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin,5 is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.6
4 Rom. 5:6, 8:7
5 Eph. 2:1,5
6 Titus 3:3-5; John 6:44

Paragraph 4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin,7 and by His grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;8 yet so as that by reason of his remaining corruptions, he does not perfectly, nor only will, that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.9
7 Col. 1:13; John 8:36
8 Phil. 2:13
9 Rom. 7:15,18,19,21,23

Paragraph 5. This will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone in
the state of glory only.10
10 Eph. 4:13

 

[PK]

If people in Noahs days were all part of the "non chosen", then why preach the powerful gospel for 120 years? The ark was created big enough for more than just his family and a few animals. People rejected God!!

 

[Dale-c]

If people in Noahs days were all part of the "non chosen", then why preach the powerful gospel for 120 years? The ark was created big enough for more than just his family and a few animals. People rejected God!!

You avoided my question.
Why did you choose and others rejected?

As for Noah, because GOd commands us to preach to all.
But God gives the increase.

 

[preachinjesus]

I hope we don't get sidetracked into a lengthy, and pointless, discussion about Calvinism vs. other views. This thread is a good one particularly about the nature of a convention like the SBC.

As I already said, I'm a "big tent" SBCer. I believe that as a convention we are better because of the Calvinists, Arminian, Dispensational, Covenant, and other evangelical theological viewpoints. I just don't understand why we have to keep narrowing the parameters of fellowship, it doesn't make sense to me and hurts the Kingdom of God.

One of the great things about the SBC, and one of the reasons I am a Southern Baptist, is our firm belief in cooperative missions and autonomy of the local church. My issue with movement against certain forms of perfectly acceptable evangelicalism in the SBC is that it seems to stifle the work of advancing God's Kingdom. I absolutely love to fellowship with my brethren from divergent theological walks. It is truly a special time during meetings to talk with them about their respective passions for evangelism, missions, and church life. Why would we want to drive out faithful members who give and go generously over some minor theological variance that is just as legitimate as others?

It truly troubles one that we have to check a box or affirm a set of peripherial doctrines in order to serve in a home denomination. Perhaps the most challenging in all of this is the movement to marginalizing faithful churches who don't want to play the political games from being able to contribute in a larger, more meaningful way.

I have plenty of brothers and sisters faithfully serving Christ in Bible believing, mission sending, cooperative program supporting Baptist churches that happen to read a few passage a bit differently than others. So long as we agree on the essentials of theology and doctrinal distinctives, why get distracted and devalue their legitimate ministry in light of a few (fairly) minor issues?

What value to God's Kingdom does rushing out faithful ministries serve?

 

[Dale-c]

I just don't understand why we have to keep narrowing the parameters of fellowship, it doesn't make sense to me and hurts the Kingdom of God.

There is a balance between condoning false doctrine and causing division.
i fellowship with many people with differing views.
I have many different types of baptists as friends as well as Presbyterian and Lutheran, even one good friend who is the youth pastor at an Independent Christian church.

It is good to remember that this is a forum for discussing doctrinal differences.
It is also good to remember that we should all work to further the cause of Christ.
And work together whenever possible.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Hoooah to the SBC getting more calvinist again. :thumbs: :jesus: :thumbs:

 

[webdog]

I personally would be more excited about baptists becoming more extroverted in sharing the Gospel than learning a new theological viewpoint.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I personally would be more excited about baptists becoming more extroverted in sharing the Gospel than learning a new theological viewpoint.

Well Jesus is excited about us going and making disciples. Do you know what that involves? Teaching... theology. Do you know who has the greatest missions program in the world? Or is it really that you are not excited that what you call false theology or false doctrine is on the upswing in the SBC?

 

[reformedbeliever]

I personally would be more excited about baptists becoming more extroverted in sharing the Gospel than learning a new theological viewpoint.

Are you speaking for yourself here or others? What missions programs are you involved in? How do you personally spread the Gospel? Seriously, i'm asking.

 

[dan e.]

I personally would be more excited about baptists becoming more extroverted in sharing the Gospel than learning a new theological viewpoint.

I agree.

Acknowledgment to a certain point of view is unfortunately seen as the qualifier of your spiritual life......to a dangerous degree, IMO.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Some folks are just anti-calvinists.

 

[dan e.]

Some folks are just anti-calvinists.

Not me. :thumbs:

Although I like to poke at those who get their feathers ruffled over silly things, like someone else not agreeing with them on the 5 points....gasp!

 

[dan e.]

Sometimes I wonder if we're experiencing a modern day "scholasticism", in that there is so much emphasis on acknowledging a system of thought over anything else.

 

[webdog]

Well Jesus is excited about us going and making disciples. Do you know what that involves? Teaching... theology. Do you know who has the greatest missions program in the world? Or is it really that you are not excited that what you call false theology or false doctrine is on the upswing in the SBC?

What is a disciple, rb? Is it someone who places the ins and outs of God into a systematic theology? What part of my post doesn't allude to discipleship?

Am I excited when a pastor during the course of a sermon states to compare our salvation experience to Romans 9? Of course not. That's promoting a man made theological view and NOT correct exegesis of Scripture!

 

[webdog]

Sometimes I wonder if we're experiencing a modern day "scholasticism", in that there is so much emphasis on acknowledging a system of thought over anything else.

BINGO! And hence the reason the SBC is becoming more calvinistic. Scripture isn't being mainly taught unbiasedly, but how that Scripture fits into the calvinistic mold.