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Calvinists, consider another perspective on Rm. 9
- Thread starter Skandelon
- Start date
Ray Berrian
New Member
johnp,
' . . . who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.'
Do not get me wrong, it is a good admonition but these words are not in the Greek text. As Christians we want to put to death our fleshly human desires a proclivity to do evil; and we should learn to walk in the things of God and in the Holy Spirit.
Ray
' . . . who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.'
Do not get me wrong, it is a good admonition but these words are not in the Greek text. As Christians we want to put to death our fleshly human desires a proclivity to do evil; and we should learn to walk in the things of God and in the Holy Spirit.
Ray
Ray Berrian
New Member
Do any Calvinists have a problem with the Greek words in II Peter 3:9?
I am saying that the English words ‘not willing’ is the Greek word, (boulomenos) meaning ‘to determine or purpose’ and the words in English ‘to us-ward is more like ‘any’. So Peter is saying that the Lord is patient with (humas) meaning you not 'determining' or 'purposing' that any should perish, but that all men {sinners} should come to repentance.
The Greek word is {boulomenos}.
I am saying that the English words ‘not willing’ is the Greek word, (boulomenos) meaning ‘to determine or purpose’ and the words in English ‘to us-ward is more like ‘any’. So Peter is saying that the Lord is patient with (humas) meaning you not 'determining' or 'purposing' that any should perish, but that all men {sinners} should come to repentance.
The Greek word is {boulomenos}.
lets_reason_toghether
New Member
Ray Berrian
Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
IF Christ didn't save that which was lost, we can't.. only his covenant people (elect) were "lost" in the fall. Matt 1:21
ALso, there is not a Scripture that teaches a sinner how to "get in Christ".... the only way to get in Christ is to be chosen Him in. Is 53 all of us like sheep have gone atray...and the enire chapter is spealing of Justifing (makeing just) the God's sheep or coventent people... my His knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many.. for he shall bear their inquities.
The only sense that they are still lost are "gospelly" in fellowhip (2nd Pe 3:6) not in sonship.
I think the greek and Hebrew aer good but when start to put them above the Lord you become as teh people that crucified him.
The only reason the seminaries include greek and hebrew is to explain their doctrine... that is what the Roman Catholics did to keep the dependecny of the people on the them. But john states...
1st john 2:27But the anointing which ye have
received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Now pastors are needed but in that sense. Now it is good to study but once greek and hebrew enter to know the scriptures you flirt with man's wisdom. It is hard to prove that you are all wise and Christ is mighty to save at the same time.
Once you creat a person dependant on a man to learn about God (that is the problem with greek an hebrew) then the teaches can't be folling paul. Hebrew 5:12-6:2...
Just a thought... once a man goes to a foreidn language to explain truths to me, then he is using alternatives form of instriction than Christ did, the apostles did, and How the holy spirit does now.
The whole greek thing shoes me a man is intelligent. that is fine. But to take an english word see what it means in greek then by the greek definition instruct me on what the englsih is saying is confusing.
Besides without the SPirit of God you can't see anything...
Lu 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
IF Christ didn't save that which was lost, we can't.. only his covenant people (elect) were "lost" in the fall. Matt 1:21
ALso, there is not a Scripture that teaches a sinner how to "get in Christ".... the only way to get in Christ is to be chosen Him in. Is 53 all of us like sheep have gone atray...and the enire chapter is spealing of Justifing (makeing just) the God's sheep or coventent people... my His knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many.. for he shall bear their inquities.
The only sense that they are still lost are "gospelly" in fellowhip (2nd Pe 3:6) not in sonship.
I think the greek and Hebrew aer good but when start to put them above the Lord you become as teh people that crucified him.
The only reason the seminaries include greek and hebrew is to explain their doctrine... that is what the Roman Catholics did to keep the dependecny of the people on the them. But john states...
1st john 2:27But the anointing which ye have
received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Now pastors are needed but in that sense. Now it is good to study but once greek and hebrew enter to know the scriptures you flirt with man's wisdom. It is hard to prove that you are all wise and Christ is mighty to save at the same time.
Once you creat a person dependant on a man to learn about God (that is the problem with greek an hebrew) then the teaches can't be folling paul. Hebrew 5:12-6:2...
Just a thought... once a man goes to a foreidn language to explain truths to me, then he is using alternatives form of instriction than Christ did, the apostles did, and How the holy spirit does now.
The whole greek thing shoes me a man is intelligent. that is fine. But to take an english word see what it means in greek then by the greek definition instruct me on what the englsih is saying is confusing.
Besides without the SPirit of God you can't see anything...
Lu 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
lets_reason_toghether
New Member
Sorry for the spelling erros,
Love,
Larry
Love,
Larry
lets_reason_toghether
New Member
I am not a calvinist nor am I arminian.... here is why... this is written by a fellow freind of mine.
The Doctrine of God’s Love
And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. (Colossians 3:14)
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. (I John 4:7)
The love of God to men keeps me from being an Arminian; the love of God in men keeps me from being a Calvinist. Therefore, I am grateful for the clear teaching I have found among the Primitive Baptists, which is consistent with what the Bible tells me about the love of God.
By “Arminian” I here mean someone who asserts that a man must, of his own will, perform some act or adopt some belief in order to obtain eternal life. This false teaching lowers Christianity to the level of all other human religions, where man has to do something in exchange for God’s favor. Whether a man is taught that he has to sacrifice something precious in exchange for good crops, or suppress some desire in exchange for a better reincarnation, or profess some belief in exchange for regeneration, the story is the same. These religious teachings portray the relationship between God and men as a quid pro quo, or “this for that,” in which God says, “Here is the requirement to man – meet it, and my favor is yours. Fail to meet it, and it is not.” The relationship is one of employer to employee.
But the Bible describes a relationship of love between God and His people in the human race. It is the relationship of a wonderful father to a wayward child. It is the relationship of a heroic groom to a fallen bride. It is the relationship of the sinless Lord, Jesus Christ, to men and women who are spiritually dead in trespasses and sin, and who are unwilling and incapable of meeting any requirement at all in the sight of a holy God. (Ephesians 2:1-5)
The Bible describes the love, or charity, of God as binding (Colossians 3:14), unfailing (I Corinthians 13:8), and everlasting (Jeremiah 31:3). Thus, no teaching which says, “God loves you, but you have to meet this requirement in order to live with Him,” can stand. If God loves you, He loves you forever, and will see that all requirements are indeed met – in the finished work of His only begotten Son. (Romans 8:32) The Bible teachings of the love of God far surpass Arminianism. This is grace -- a teaching of true Christianity.
By “Calvinist” I here mean someone who asserts that a man must, as a result of God’s will, hear and embrace some form of gospel before he comes to physical death, or else he is not a child of God. Sometimes, this belief is modified to make an exception for the person who dies in infancy, or the person who dies in mental incapacity, but the position still clings to a precept that the gospel is God’s “ordinary” method of providing evidence of eternal life. But there is nothing ordinary at all about the gospel being preached or believed. It is a miracle, which the Lord Jesus puts in the same list with raising the dead and giving sight to the blind. (Matthew 11:5) Furthermore, the Bible teaches in I John 4:7 that “every one that loveth is born of God.” They are regenerated. The same verse teaches that every one that loves “knoweth God,” which is eternal life (John 17:3). Thus, the Calvinist must believe that anyone who dies, having never heard or believed the gospel, also never loved. If he admits love to exist outside the boundary of those who will hear the gospel on earth, he has to admit that the regenerate elect person can also leave the earth without the gospel.
Specifically, the Calvinist must believe that one who never hears and embraces the gospel before death is one of the goats described in Matthew 25, who never fed the hungry, clothed the naked, or visited the sick. In that teaching, the Lord Jesus did not teach that the goats’ acts of mercy were insufficient, He taught that they were non-existent. Thus, the Calvinist is forced to state that the only unselfish acts of love and kindness are performed by those who have professed, or will profess, some form of Christianity before they die.
The Bible teachings are clear and consistent; there are human beings who are not God’s children and who will be judged according to their works. Conversely, there are human beings who are God’s children by grace, and will be judged according to Christ’s works. All children of God must have been chosen by God, must have been redeemed by the Son of God, and must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit of God. All of them will have faith, whether it is exercised in a manner obvious to others or not. All of them will know Jesus Christ, sometimes even when they do not know the name of Jesus Christ. This regeneration, this new birth, and this inner knowledge of the person of the Lord Jesus, will be the cause of love within their hearts. The Bible teachings of the love of God far surpass Calvinism. (Heb. 8:11-12, John 6:45, I Thes. 4:9)
What a great comfort it is to be able to rejoice about the love of God in men, wherever we find it. Then we may view it as our sacred duty and high privilege to tell men everywhere of God’s unfailing love, which reaches all of His children, whether they find the true gospel or die in false religion. Then we may tell them the name of their Savior, and what great things He did, and point them to the true Church of the Lord, Jesus Christ.
written by Elder Marty Smith
The Doctrine of God’s Love
And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. (Colossians 3:14)
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. (I John 4:7)
The love of God to men keeps me from being an Arminian; the love of God in men keeps me from being a Calvinist. Therefore, I am grateful for the clear teaching I have found among the Primitive Baptists, which is consistent with what the Bible tells me about the love of God.
By “Arminian” I here mean someone who asserts that a man must, of his own will, perform some act or adopt some belief in order to obtain eternal life. This false teaching lowers Christianity to the level of all other human religions, where man has to do something in exchange for God’s favor. Whether a man is taught that he has to sacrifice something precious in exchange for good crops, or suppress some desire in exchange for a better reincarnation, or profess some belief in exchange for regeneration, the story is the same. These religious teachings portray the relationship between God and men as a quid pro quo, or “this for that,” in which God says, “Here is the requirement to man – meet it, and my favor is yours. Fail to meet it, and it is not.” The relationship is one of employer to employee.
But the Bible describes a relationship of love between God and His people in the human race. It is the relationship of a wonderful father to a wayward child. It is the relationship of a heroic groom to a fallen bride. It is the relationship of the sinless Lord, Jesus Christ, to men and women who are spiritually dead in trespasses and sin, and who are unwilling and incapable of meeting any requirement at all in the sight of a holy God. (Ephesians 2:1-5)
The Bible describes the love, or charity, of God as binding (Colossians 3:14), unfailing (I Corinthians 13:8), and everlasting (Jeremiah 31:3). Thus, no teaching which says, “God loves you, but you have to meet this requirement in order to live with Him,” can stand. If God loves you, He loves you forever, and will see that all requirements are indeed met – in the finished work of His only begotten Son. (Romans 8:32) The Bible teachings of the love of God far surpass Arminianism. This is grace -- a teaching of true Christianity.
By “Calvinist” I here mean someone who asserts that a man must, as a result of God’s will, hear and embrace some form of gospel before he comes to physical death, or else he is not a child of God. Sometimes, this belief is modified to make an exception for the person who dies in infancy, or the person who dies in mental incapacity, but the position still clings to a precept that the gospel is God’s “ordinary” method of providing evidence of eternal life. But there is nothing ordinary at all about the gospel being preached or believed. It is a miracle, which the Lord Jesus puts in the same list with raising the dead and giving sight to the blind. (Matthew 11:5) Furthermore, the Bible teaches in I John 4:7 that “every one that loveth is born of God.” They are regenerated. The same verse teaches that every one that loves “knoweth God,” which is eternal life (John 17:3). Thus, the Calvinist must believe that anyone who dies, having never heard or believed the gospel, also never loved. If he admits love to exist outside the boundary of those who will hear the gospel on earth, he has to admit that the regenerate elect person can also leave the earth without the gospel.
Specifically, the Calvinist must believe that one who never hears and embraces the gospel before death is one of the goats described in Matthew 25, who never fed the hungry, clothed the naked, or visited the sick. In that teaching, the Lord Jesus did not teach that the goats’ acts of mercy were insufficient, He taught that they were non-existent. Thus, the Calvinist is forced to state that the only unselfish acts of love and kindness are performed by those who have professed, or will profess, some form of Christianity before they die.
The Bible teachings are clear and consistent; there are human beings who are not God’s children and who will be judged according to their works. Conversely, there are human beings who are God’s children by grace, and will be judged according to Christ’s works. All children of God must have been chosen by God, must have been redeemed by the Son of God, and must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit of God. All of them will have faith, whether it is exercised in a manner obvious to others or not. All of them will know Jesus Christ, sometimes even when they do not know the name of Jesus Christ. This regeneration, this new birth, and this inner knowledge of the person of the Lord Jesus, will be the cause of love within their hearts. The Bible teachings of the love of God far surpass Calvinism. (Heb. 8:11-12, John 6:45, I Thes. 4:9)
What a great comfort it is to be able to rejoice about the love of God in men, wherever we find it. Then we may view it as our sacred duty and high privilege to tell men everywhere of God’s unfailing love, which reaches all of His children, whether they find the true gospel or die in false religion. Then we may tell them the name of their Savior, and what great things He did, and point them to the true Church of the Lord, Jesus Christ.
written by Elder Marty Smith
Ray Berrian
New Member
Larry,
I agree that I John 2:27 is what most of it is all about. We have much more in the Bible to understand and more than enough to insure our eternal security.
I am not a Greek scholar but you have to check it in order to find out some details that we do not understand in the KJV and are not found there. For example I John 3:9 in the English is ‘commit’ but in the Greek it is the word ‘practice.’ Big difference!! It means that the Christian does not practice sinning, because the Holy Spirit remains in us. The Greek verb, practice is in the aorist active tense, meaning continuing action. The true Christian does not keep on practicing sinning.
As far as what you said, each Christian is dependent on what the scholars have taken from the original languages and placed in our various languages. The good thing is that often there are a group of scholars who work on a Greek translation.
As far as the Roman Catholic Church, in their Bible, they changed the actual meaning of the Greek into Latin and passed it off as the real truth. I have not checked this but the word like elders or pastor is turned into the word, priest. But I might be wrong.
The Apostle Paul did not write his epistles in English as some people have thought. I don’t know where you are in this understanding, but it would be good for you to follow along with what another Greek scholar is saying about verses. This is a must and is very valuable in placing His precious Word under a magnifying glass.
I do at times get lost in Dr. Robertson’s detailed understanding of Greek grammar. Some are better than others for people like me. I like Dr. Kenneth S. Wuest, but I don’t know if they still publish his work. Both men see very fair in their explaining word pictures.
I did want to say that the Catholic translators may have carries over the O.T. idea of priests to the N.T. rendering of those in spiritual leadership. Only they know.
Brother Ray
I agree that I John 2:27 is what most of it is all about. We have much more in the Bible to understand and more than enough to insure our eternal security.
I am not a Greek scholar but you have to check it in order to find out some details that we do not understand in the KJV and are not found there. For example I John 3:9 in the English is ‘commit’ but in the Greek it is the word ‘practice.’ Big difference!! It means that the Christian does not practice sinning, because the Holy Spirit remains in us. The Greek verb, practice is in the aorist active tense, meaning continuing action. The true Christian does not keep on practicing sinning.
As far as what you said, each Christian is dependent on what the scholars have taken from the original languages and placed in our various languages. The good thing is that often there are a group of scholars who work on a Greek translation.
As far as the Roman Catholic Church, in their Bible, they changed the actual meaning of the Greek into Latin and passed it off as the real truth. I have not checked this but the word like elders or pastor is turned into the word, priest. But I might be wrong.
The Apostle Paul did not write his epistles in English as some people have thought. I don’t know where you are in this understanding, but it would be good for you to follow along with what another Greek scholar is saying about verses. This is a must and is very valuable in placing His precious Word under a magnifying glass.
I do at times get lost in Dr. Robertson’s detailed understanding of Greek grammar. Some are better than others for people like me. I like Dr. Kenneth S. Wuest, but I don’t know if they still publish his work. Both men see very fair in their explaining word pictures.
I did want to say that the Catholic translators may have carries over the O.T. idea of priests to the N.T. rendering of those in spiritual leadership. Only they know.
Brother Ray
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Lets reason together;
I can only tell you that the reason I study the Original Greek is because I don't trust man. If it's confussing to you. Maybe you should do some reading about it. Knowing a little about the language will give you a clearer view of scripture as a whole. Your dislike of it's use is the reason I study it. I have the same dislike of dependence on the words of men as well.
Ps 118:8
May God Bless you;
Mike
I can only tell you that the reason I study the Original Greek is because I don't trust man. If it's confussing to you. Maybe you should do some reading about it. Knowing a little about the language will give you a clearer view of scripture as a whole. Your dislike of it's use is the reason I study it. I have the same dislike of dependence on the words of men as well.
Ps 118:8
May God Bless you;
Mike
lets_reason_toghether
New Member
Hello,
I am not saying greek and hebrew are all wrong.. but when an idividual looks at one word meaning in any language and generates a definition he/she has just excluded all context. So to pull a word and define and then make it fit the context, to me is backwards. The context defines the meaning. it is good to see a meaning to what it might mean.
for example
saved strongs 4892 is used in both of the following passages. To me means being delivered.
Now my intepretation from the scriptures is to see the context to see what the individual is delivered from.
Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
deliverd from wrath through the blood of Christ
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
if they do not remember they are in a state of not knowing that Christ has Risen and of men most miserable.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
delivered from feeling like a failure, and/or fullfilling her God ordained role as a help meet.
Ac 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
deleivered from an untoward generation
I am not agaist it... but trying to make a definition fit every single time..... also take into account that Mr. Strongs was man and is given to error.
This gets into a discussion on the bible... I see the KJV as being the totally inerrant word of God. His word endures forever and I can't see new translations or more inspired that would be stating that men didn't have the inerrent word of God for a couple of hundred years. Then it gets to which Greek manuscripts, and that is another posting in here...
Blessings,
Larry
I am not saying greek and hebrew are all wrong.. but when an idividual looks at one word meaning in any language and generates a definition he/she has just excluded all context. So to pull a word and define and then make it fit the context, to me is backwards. The context defines the meaning. it is good to see a meaning to what it might mean.
for example
saved strongs 4892 is used in both of the following passages. To me means being delivered.
Now my intepretation from the scriptures is to see the context to see what the individual is delivered from.
Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
deliverd from wrath through the blood of Christ
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
if they do not remember they are in a state of not knowing that Christ has Risen and of men most miserable.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
delivered from feeling like a failure, and/or fullfilling her God ordained role as a help meet.
Ac 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
deleivered from an untoward generation
I am not agaist it... but trying to make a definition fit every single time..... also take into account that Mr. Strongs was man and is given to error.
This gets into a discussion on the bible... I see the KJV as being the totally inerrant word of God. His word endures forever and I can't see new translations or more inspired that would be stating that men didn't have the inerrent word of God for a couple of hundred years. Then it gets to which Greek manuscripts, and that is another posting in here...
Blessings,
Larry
Ray Berrian
New Member
ILUVLIGHT,
Ray
It is interesting that the Lord does not put the trust in us initially; the lost place their trust in Him. One this verse I do not think we need to study the Hebrew word for 'trust' but it might be interesting.
Ray
Ray Berrian
New Member
johnp,
That verse that I was trying to locate about the archangel that fell from grace, is found in Ezekiel 28:13-15. God did not ordain that he fall, but the angel must have had the ability to disobey God just as sinners and saints alike can do. The verse reads:
'Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.'The word (iniquity) in the Hebrew is {olah, olaw} meaning moral evil, perverseness, unrighteousness or wickedness.
The word (till) was translated from the Hebrew word, {ad) meaning 'even to' 'to' 'until' or 'when.'
God is saying that the archangel was perfect until moral evil was found in him.
That verse that I was trying to locate about the archangel that fell from grace, is found in Ezekiel 28:13-15. God did not ordain that he fall, but the angel must have had the ability to disobey God just as sinners and saints alike can do. The verse reads:
'Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.'The word (iniquity) in the Hebrew is {olah, olaw} meaning moral evil, perverseness, unrighteousness or wickedness.
The word (till) was translated from the Hebrew word, {ad) meaning 'even to' 'to' 'until' or 'when.'
God is saying that the archangel was perfect until moral evil was found in him.
Ray,
You stated:
Do any Calvinists have a problem with the Greek words in II Peter 3:9?
Answer: If you are using this as a proof text against Calvinism, it has been addressed in the following forum:http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1204.html
Also, what are you trying to prove by your angel example in your last post?
In Christ
You stated:
Do any Calvinists have a problem with the Greek words in II Peter 3:9?
Answer: If you are using this as a proof text against Calvinism, it has been addressed in the following forum:http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1204.html
Also, what are you trying to prove by your angel example in your last post?
In Christ
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Ray
May God Bless You;
Mike
Hebrew for me is a bit more complicated I did do some reading on it. The alphabet alone is enough to drive me crazy. As near as I can figure in the baker interlinear it actually says "It is better to take refuge in the Lord that to place confidence in man" I know that's a little different than the KJV which I rely on mostly. I think it's still has the same message/
May God Bless You;
Mike
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Lets reason together;
From what I've seen from you so far it looks like you have a good handle on it. I understand how you feel. Lot's of people have twisted ideas today and will try anything to confuse you.
Keep the faith brother.
May God Bless You;
Mike
From what I've seen from you so far it looks like you have a good handle on it. I understand how you feel. Lot's of people have twisted ideas today and will try anything to confuse you.
Keep the faith brother.
May God Bless You;
Mike