Calvinists have a "higher" view of mankind than Non-Calvinists

[Winman]

I will bite Winman. Just who is the guilty party, the one responsible for the sin nature? Name that one so he can be punished!

My object was to show Skan's OP premise correct. If men are sinners by necessity, then at best they can be considered victims.

However, if man retains the true ability to choose either good or evil, then a man is 100% responsible for his own sin, and cannot blame another.

So, the Reformed/Calvinist view presents a man as a victim, the non-Cal view presents man as a transgressor.

Skan is correct.

Seeing I believe men truly make their own choices and have no one to blame but themselves, I am under no obligation to provide a cause outside the man's own volition.

It is you that believes a man is a sinner by necessity at birth and must explain what caused this.

 

[OldRegular]

So, the Reformed/Calvinist view presents a man as a victim

So who is the one guilty of victimizing these poor unfortunates, including me. That was the question I initially asked. I need to know!

 

[MB]

-Calvinists also believe this, we simply believe that even those who believe would also be in this category were it not for the electing grace of God.



Mmm...you should know better than this. Calvinist do not teach this (bolded section), at least not the ones I know. We would say God does in desire (revealed will) them to come to repentance (since the bible says that), but that he has not ordained (decretive will) to grant them the faith that they would not have produced on their own for some purpose we cannot fully understand.



According to Rom. 1, people are without excuse because they do not worship God, even though he has revealed himself in nature. ALL people choose this path, as none seek God (Rom. 3). God is not unjust to punish those who reject him...he was under no obligation to save ANY of us who rebelled against him. But he, in love, predestined us for adoption as sons.



1. I suppose we would have to have a long discussion about Adam's headship and representation of humanity for this one, but that's for another day...

2. Your argument sounds like an argument a defense attorney would use for a serial killer by claiming "mental illness." I believe that a killer who is so far gone as to have lost the ability to make good decisions is STILL responsible for their crimes, and deserving of punishment. In fact, those who are so hardened are the most dangerous, and the ones that most need to be condemned for their crimes. I think this may be part of what drove God to wipe out entire cities in the OT for their depraved wickedness. Occasionally God would "Choose" to save a few (Rahab, Lot) but he often doesn't.



I don't believe all non-Calvinists have a too high view of man, precisely because I think it theoretically possible that God could give each man libertine free will. I simply believe the bible teaches otherwise...that it teaches that because of Adam's sin, we are all born with natural sinfulness that so affects us that we would not choose God apart from a supernatural working of his spirit in us. I do not think that the message itself should be equated with that work, as I think you do...evidenced by the fact that not everyone responds to this message.

My number one contention with Calvinism is just what this working of the Holy Spirit is. Calvinist insist that it is regeneration when scripture never once says this is true.
I believe in freewill and even I know man doesn't come to God on his own but instead is drawn by God. Man is taught by God or convinced of the gospel but Calvinist insist that God can't convince the man unless he is first regenerated. I believe all things are possible with God. I do not believe man is or has been made unable to respond when we all agree it is God's work when the man is drawn. It is God's work when man is convinced of the gospel. We all agree that man is convicted by the Holy Spirit. Yet we do not agree that man can make the decision to surrender to a righteous God. Even though with out said surrender the man has to go and seek his own righteousness as in Rom. 10:1-4

So I guess it comes back to the ultimate question of whether it is God's choice that ultimately determines whether one is saved, or whether it is man's choice. Until one has settled that basic question, the other related issues will only be secondary.

Sometimes I feel it's much deeper than this. I admit it isn't man who just up out of the blue chooses Christ. I believe Christ chose me but that in no way ever meant I was going to be saved no matter what. It simply means that Christ died for all the lost. Even though that statement includes every mothers son. Because He died for us all doesn't in anyway mean all will be saved. It means only those who believe will have the atonement applied to them.

I would not even necessarily have a problem with those who say God chooses who will be saved, and man must choose to accept Christ to be saved. From ages 18 -26 I think I would have been in that middle camp, not really a calvinist, but convinced that it was not simply because I was smarter than those people who rejected Christ...it had to be something else that cause me to believe.

In my humbled opinon I always have believe men believe in Christ because there is no other way. During conviction you begin to realize that there is really only one way you can escape the conviction. Christ is the only way. People believe because, they accept it as truth.
MB

 

[Winman]

So who is the one guilty of victimizing these poor unfortunates, including me. That was the question I initially asked. I need to know!

I answered. I believe men retain the ability to freely choose either good or evil, so I am under no obligation to explain a cause outside the man.

It is you that believes a man is born with a sin nature that irresistibly compels him to sin, through no choice or fault of his own, and therefore it is your obligation to explain what caused this.

So, you tell me.

 

[MB]

That's not even close to true. Go read some history before making statements like this.

1. Calvin was not in charge.
2. It wasn't over his writing.
3. Calvin tried to change the death to a different, less painful death, but was unable to get that because he wasn't in charge.


Calvinist doesn't in any way mean a follower of John Calvin. A "non-calvinist" would be you and anyone that doesn't believe the doctrines commonly known as "Calvinism."

I completely disagree. There is much more to Christianity than Calvinism.
I for one do not base my belief on the rejection of Calvinism. I base my Belief on the Word of God. I am not a Non Calvinist. I am a born again Christian who disagrees with the doctrines of Calvinism. There is only one true doctrine. The doctrine of Jesus Christ.
MB

 

[OldRegular]

There is only one true doctrine. The doctrine of Jesus Christ.
MB

You are most certainly correct! And Jesus Christ taught:

John 10:26-30
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30. I and my Father are one.

Now where did the Father get them? He chose them!

 

[MB]

First: I am not a Calvinist, never have been and never will be. However, I do believe in the Biblical teaching of Sovereign Grace.

Scripture tells us: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.[John 6:44]

From this we see that Jesus Christ is saying that God must take the initiative in Salvation. I assume you agree with that truth.

Apparently we have two rebels above. I actually thought that all mankind in general were in rebellion to God as He shows us through the Apostle Paul:

Romans 3:10-18
10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14. Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15. Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16. Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17. And the way of peace have they not known:
18. There is no fear of God before their eyes..

Skandelon, I believe you have established a false dichotomy. You say both individuals were rebels [and we all are] but one rebel was given enough to believe and would not and the other was deliberately not given enough to believe and could not.

Then why did this individual #1 not believe if they had everything they needed to believe. I don’t know how you define “everything they need to believe” but it is obvious that this individual did not have all he needed to believe or he would have believed!

Many men trample what they know to be truth, because they mistakenly believe that to submit means they will never be able to sin again. Some men even love sin more than God. Some are so conceded they don't think they even need a God. Some flat out hate the idea of a higher power than them selves. Some hate God because of the conviction and can not be convinced because they have harden themselves against God. And some simply have no conscience for conviction to work on.

Now consider your characterization of Individual #1, a rebel,


I believe you will agree that all people are individuals and all may respond differently to the same information or stimuli.

1. Do some individuals require more “information, drawing or enlightemnt by the Holy Spirit” than other individuals to receive God’s gracious offer of Salvation or do all require exactly the same “drawing” by God?

2. If one individual requires more than another individual does God the Holy Spirit provide whatever amount is needed or does He not?

3. If God the Holy Spirit does not provide that extra stimolus, information required by some individuals to receive God’s gracious offer of Salvation, then they did not receive “all they needed”?

Did They??

Seems to be a very poor set of examples. When I consider all the work my Lord did on me. Though I know any answer here would only give you something to jump on.
My Lord died for me. That alone should have covered it. This alone should turn the hardest of hearts yet it doesn't. The reason for that is the ability to rebel this is there choice. We all have this choice. No where in scripture does it ever say man has no choice. Yet it does say;
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

You have to do the same which God do you want to serve
MB

 

[MB]

You are most certainly correct! And Jesus Christ taught:

John 10:26-30
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30. I and my Father are one.

Now where did the Father get them? He chose them!

They weren't his sheep, the same as you weren't his sheep before you believed. Believing is what makes us sheep. Believing is what causes our submission to God.
However you claim to be a sheep before you were saved. which is saying you were born saved instead of in sin. Make up your mind, either you are a sheep or you aren't. It's either you are, or you aren't, you cannot be both.
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

:laugh:

So who is the one guilty of victimizing these poor unfortunates, including me. That was the question I initially asked. I need to know!

:laugh::laugh::thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

They weren't his sheep, the same as you weren't his sheep before you believed. Believing is what makes us sheep. Believing is what causes our submission to God.However you claim to be a sheep before you were saved. which is saying you were born saved instead of in sin. Make up your mind, either you are a sheep or you aren't. It's either you are, or you aren't, you cannot be both.
MB

And yet you claim to believe the teaching of Jesus which teaches exactly the opposite of what you post here;
[QUOTE26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. ][/QUOTE]

Old regular posts the verse...you look at it,,,but do not "see it"

 

[OldRegular]

They weren't his sheep, the same as you weren't his sheep before you believed. Believing is what makes us sheep. Believing is what causes our submission to God.
However you claim to be a sheep before you were saved. which is saying you were born saved instead of in sin. Make up your mind, either you are a sheep or you aren't. It's either you are, or you aren't, you cannot be both.
MB

MB

Show me where I claimed that I was a sheep before I was saved. If you can't then you owe me an apology for the above statement which is pathetically untrue!

 

[gb93433]

Thats your opinion & I trust you know what opinions are like! :tongue3:

It is not my opinion. Sometime back I asked on BB about how many have read any of Calvin's works and very few responded positively. Have you read any of Calvin's works such as his Institutes?

So much for your opinion.

 

[OldRegular]

You have to do the same which God do you want to serve
MB

MB

You are borderline close to questioning my salvation That is a NO, NO!

However, since you ask I serve the LORD GOD of Sovereign Grace. The GOD who revealed Himself in the writings we call the Bible, the God who revealed Himself finally through the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[plain_n_simple]

You are borderline close to questioning my salvation That is a NO, NO!

I understand that it is a BB rule not to question a persons salvation, but what is the big deal?

If I put a quarter in my pocket, I know without a doubt I have a quarter in my pocket.

If Bill or Joe tells me they doubt very seriously I actually have a quarter in my pocket, why would I be offended or care what they say when I know the facts.

The fact is you should not be offended or feel threatened if someone doubts or questions your salvation.

If you feel threatened by words on a computer screen you might need to reaffirm your belief that you are in fact saved.

Sorry or going off topic, carry on....

 

[OldRegular]

The fact is you should not be offended or feel threatened if someone doubts or questions your salvation.

If you feel threatened by words on a computer screen you might need to reaffirm your belief that you are in fact saved.

Sorry or going off topic, carry on....

No I don't feel threatened. I was simply calling MB's attention to the Forum rules. But you take a devious opportunity to do the same thing that MB has done.

I have routinely experienced this same attitude on this Forum in the past. It is quite common from dispensationalists, less so from some freewillers.

 

[plain_n_simple]

It is not devious if you feel threatened by a weakness in your belief and it shows up by me exposing it. Calm down and realize that you are saved and it does not matter what anyone says or thinks about it, be strong brother!

 

[OldRegular]

It is not devious if you feel threatened by a weakness in your belief and it shows up by me exposing it.

You haven't exposed anything!

 

[plain_n_simple]

Then why worry if someone questions your salvation?

 

[MB]

MB

Show me where I claimed that I was a sheep before I was saved. If you can't then you owe me an apology for the above statement which is pathetically untrue!

Did you or did you not state this question in post 46

Now where did the Father get them? He chose them!

Being chosen does not make you a child of God or a sheep. Being saved makes you a sheep.
No doubt you were attempting to convince me that unless we are a sheep we cannot hear or understand which isn't true even in the least.
In post 47 You said;

I believe you have established a false dichotomy. You say both individuals were rebels [and we all are] but one rebel was given enough to believe and would not and the other was deliberately not given enough to believe and could not.

Simply you have no idea what any man is given. All men are drawn, because all men have been chosen for Salvation even though not all men will be saved. Man's rebellion is why most men aren't saved.
Yet you still want to impress others with the idea some men can't respond which you have no scriptural support for.

Then you accuse me;

You are borderline close to questioning my salvation That is a NO, NO!

However, since you ask I serve the LORD GOD of Sovereign Grace. The GOD who revealed Himself in the writings we call the Bible, the God who revealed Himself finally through the Lord Jesus Christ.

I never even implied what you are accusing me of here and you know it. You just don't have an answer to what I said. So instead you accuse me of a made up charge.
You say your not a Calvinist well then you should know grace is not sovereign. God is Sovereign There are not two sovereigns.
All men have been given a measure of faith whether they hold on to it or not.
If it were true that some cannot come because God has prevented them then the Bible is a lie when says that Christ died for the whole world.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
This enables every mothers son to come to Christ. All they have to do is choose to stop fighting against God and trust Him.
MB

 

[OldRegular]

MB

I posted the following [#52] on Skandelon's thread "Let's hash out the distinction between Original Sin and Total Depravity"

Perhaps you can understand; but I will not hold my breath!!!

You keep getting ahead of yourself Skandelon. The above statement is patently false. Before regeneration the elect is under the wrath of God. Please note the Apostle Paul:

Ephesians 2:1-10, NASB
1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.