:applause: Good one! :laugh: Gotta love you guys :love2: :1_grouphug:
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Calvinists help me understand
- Thread starter evangelist6589
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:applause: Good one! :laugh: Gotta love you guys :love2: :1_grouphug:
Calvinism does not teach this...but I guess you offer this idea as if you can defeat it:laugh:
Paragraph 4. Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit,12 yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:13 much less can men that do not receive the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.14
12 Matt. 22:14, 13:20,21; Heb 6:4,5
13 John 6:44,45,65; 1 John 2:24,25
14 Acts 4:12; John 4:22, 17:3
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Ah....
To do so, without considering the internal and historical context, would be to miss the point of the book. And, it is to seek an escape from the Author's main point in order to prefer your own interpretation, divorced from all things that convey its intended meaning. In short, it's groping in the darkness.
The Archangel
:laugh::laugh::laugh:......this is quite convincing:laugh:
Well that is convenient......gotta explain it away somehow right :thumbsup:
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
You can scoff, or you can learn. I guess you've chosen the first option. Too bad!
The Archangel
Did you read the post? The question is obvious.
Ok, if you say so brother :love2: Spirit is teaching me something different. Guess will see who was listening the best at the judgment seat of Christ.
He enjoys being confused evidently....the only thing Arminian in the book of Jonah was the great fish...as soon as Jonah said salvation is of the Lord...the fish spit him out faster than those on BB resist the grace of God as expressed in scripture:laugh::wavey:
That post was quite strange and not obvious at all.
James, I appreciate your refraining from being inflammatory. I labor hard at honest discussion, even if the other person doesn't reciprocate.
No. I honestly don't understand the OP's question. I think I know what he's driving at, but the OP was so poorly written I don't want to be left assuming its intent. But as to your question...
A former professor of mine once said:
What he meant was that narratives do not always support a specific theological understanding (or doctrine). That understanding is assumed based on one's systematic theology. What's interesting is that this professor is viscerally anti-Calvinist!
The point?
The author of Jonah didn't have Monergism or Synergism in mind when he wrote his account. Depending on one's presupposition they may see Jonah as supporting their view of election, but since election and regeneration is really not the main focus of the book, they are guilt of a logical fallacy - a fatal flaw in their presupposition. This is not unique just to one side. Both Arminians and Calvinists are often guilty of this fallacy.
Here is what I do see in Jonah. Chapter 3 shows me the wonderful Old Testament picture of the Gospel at work. God commands Jonah to to preach the judgment of God upon the city of Nineveh. That is what we do when we proclaim Romans 3:23; 5:8; and 6:23a. The people of Nineveh believed in God. Hallelujah! Does Jonah 3 say that they first repented and then believed? No. It says:
Later in the chapter we read:
I think this is what your question is driving at, and here is where my theological presupposition comes into play.
1. Jonah is a narrative. It is not didactic. The point of the book is not water proof, air tight, buttoned down doctrine like the Book of Romans.
2. Can we draw conclusions from God's omniscience from Jonah 3:10? I say, no. If God truly changed His mind, and relented concerning the calamity He said He would bring against the people of Nineveh, then we are guilty of advocating the heresy of Open Theism.
3. The big picture of Jonah is not whether God truly changed His mind, but a two-fold purpose. A) Israel was guilty of not being a light of revelation to the Gentiles (Isa. 9:2; Luke 2:32). B) The grace and mercy of God extends to all who will call upon Him by faith.
So, you have my response.
Exactly.....your posting is solid and biblical...notice no scripture or solid teaching finds it's way back from these persons...interesting!:thumbsup::wavey:
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
So.... He's giving you direct revelation then? He's giving you "revelation" which ignores the text? That's highly suspect.
The Archangel
Well, I can believe the Spirit, which Jesus said would teach me, or I can believe your versions. What would you do?
I believe John (evangelist6589) is a little confused that an entire city repented. As he understands Calvinism, only the regenerated elect have the ability to repent. He seems to find it highly unlikely that every single person in this large city that had over 120,000 small children that could not discern between their right hand and left hand would repent.
That's a whole lotta repentin' goin' on in the words of Jerry Lee Lewis! :laugh:
Here's the question folks;
I don't know John, these folks can't even follow a question, you sure you want to rely on them for answers?
That's a whole lotta repentin' goin' on in the words of Jerry Lee Lewis! :laugh:
Here's the question folks;
evangelist6589 said:
I don't know John, these folks can't even follow a question, you sure you want to rely on them for answers?
:thumbs::applause: God had several purposes in this book and the subsequent Nt application.
the fact that God prepared the fish and God prepared a gourd, a strong wind, and a worm as well as His Over-ruling providence are some of the many lessons to be learned about the Absolute sovereignty of God.....
Now the word of the Lord came unto Jonah
But Jonah rose up to flee
from the presence of the Lord
But the Lord sent out a great wind into the sea
Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
Then Jonah prayed
And the Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah
the word of the Lord came unto Jonah the second time
2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee
So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth,
Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry.
And the Lord God prepared a gourd
and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his grief. So Jonah was exceeding glad of the gourd.
7 But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered.
that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah
9 And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death.
10 Then said the Lord, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:
11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?
This lesson in part also spoke of the failure of Israel as a nation to reach the gentiles worldwide..... God was in control from start to finish as always:thumbs:
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The thread killer has returned.....it was nice while it lasted.....This is about a temporary mercy used by God to illustrate several things...the city was later destroyed. But with your agenda ...you ignore the whole book to disrupt the whole thread as usual:laugh::laugh: You never address the main concerns...you just look to disrupt:sleeping_2:
:laugh::laugh: another "spirit led" person....led away from scripture:sleeping_2:
You have to keep in mind Arch, Calvinist believe that everything that comes to pass has been ordained by God. Eph 2:10 tells us that we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God has foreordained that we should walk in them. So here I am doing those works, arguing against Calvinism. So who are we to argue against God? Is there anything I can do about the way God made me here??
"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"
If God wants me to believe as you do, wouldn't He make it happen? I have been in this Calvinism debate for some time now and it has only strengthened my stance against TULIP. I don't know what else to tell you, God has me against it as of now. Do you have any suggestions as to why?
"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"
If God wants me to believe as you do, wouldn't He make it happen? I have been in this Calvinism debate for some time now and it has only strengthened my stance against TULIP. I don't know what else to tell you, God has me against it as of now. Do you have any suggestions as to why?
steaver
Who says God wants that to happen?
Not a good place to be:thumbsup:
Many fight against it for a long time and God grants them repentance....others go on
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Who says God wants that to happen?
Not a good place to be:thumbsup:
Many fight against it for a long time and God grants them repentance....others go on
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
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