Calvinists help me understand

[JamesL]

Exactly.....your posting is solid and biblical...notice no scripture or solid teaching finds it's way back from these persons...interesting!:thumbsup::wavey:

I think most have been waiting for a Calvinist response before engaging, except for a little rhetoric and antagonizing

In fairness, Archangel made a valid observation:

We do not see anything in Jonah's message about an offer of eternal redemption. But that begs the question - was the recorded "sermon" all Jonah preached? Or was there more that was not recorded? Anyone can speculate, and many on both sides do.


Also, Reformed made a valid point - that Jonah is not a doctrinal book, like Romans. When we're reading narratives, we are ALL going to import our doctrinal position into the text, because that is the paradigm from which we understand the narrative.

It could be argued that their concern was an earthly perishing, not an eternal perishing. Seems to be a valid argument, based on what is written of the content of Jonah's preaching


However, in 3:5 we are told the people of Ninevah believed in God. Is this the same "believed in God" that was said of Abraham, when it was credited to him as righteousness (Gen 15:6)? Or the Israelites in Exodus 14:31? Or the Philippian jailor and his household in Acts 16:34?


If not, why not?

 

[steaver]

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Wow, when are you going to obey this passage? :love2:

 

[Iconoclast]

Wow, when are you going to obey this passage? :love2:

I am more "gentle" when I am interacting with a sincere person with no agenda. Are you saying you have no agenda Steaver? When you come on the attack 24/7....I think perhaps other scriptures come into play.

 

[Iconoclast]

I think most have been waiting for a Calvinist response before engaging, except for a little rhetoric and antagonizing

In fairness, Archangel made a valid observation:

We do not see anything in Jonah's message about an offer of eternal redemption. But that begs the question - was the recorded "sermon" all Jonah preached? Or was there more that was not recorded? Anyone can speculate, and many on both sides do.


Also, Reformed made a valid point - that Jonah is not a doctrinal book, like Romans. When we're reading narratives, we are ALL going to import our doctrinal position into the text, because that is the paradigm from which we understand the narrative.

It could be argued that their concern was an earthly perishing, not an eternal perishing. Seems to be a valid argument, based on what is written of the content of Jonah's preaching


However, in 3:5 we are told the people of Ninevah believed in God. Is this the same "believed in God" that was said of Abraham, when it was credited to him as righteousness (Gen 15:6)? Or the Israelites in Exodus 14:31? Or the Philippian jailor and his household in Acts 16:34?


If not, why not?

The fasting and sackcloth seem to be indications of a sincere repentance at that time...it evidently was not a sustained repentance as they eventually were judged. The Nt does not focus on that aspect of it however.

 

[JamesL]

The fasting and sackcloth seem to be indications of a sincere repentance at that time...it evidently was not a sustained repentance as they eventually were judged. The Nt does not focus on that aspect of it however.

Jonah preached during the reign of Jeroboam II (786–746 BC)

Ninevah was destroyed in 612 BC

That's at least 130 years after the whole city repented. Everyone who was alive during Jonah's visit would have been dead by the time the destruction came.

Nahum was written against Ninevah sometime after 663 BC, at least 80 years after Jonah preached.

So "they" who were destroyed is not the same "they" who heard Jonah.

 

[steaver]

I am more "gentle" when I am interacting with a sincere person with no agenda. Are you saying you have no agenda Steaver? When you come on the attack 24/7....I think perhaps other scriptures come into play.

Oh, I missed the "sincere" persons part in that scripture. :smilewinkgrin:

You will notice, I only attack the doctrine TULIP. I never belittle a brother or sister for not understanding scripture.

Love you man!!!:love2:

 

[steaver]

. Are you saying you have no agenda Steaver?

Don't we all? Is having an agenda some sort of sin here? Right now my agenda is to expose the flaws of Calvinism. Now according to your beliefs you should know that it is God who has formed me to do this, He is the potter, I'm just the clay. If I oppose Calvinism to the day I die it will be because God made me do it, correct? So don't fight with God brother! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Iconoclast]

Jonah preached during the reign of Jeroboam II (786–746 BC)

Ninevah was destroyed in 612 BC

That's at least 130 years after the whole city repented. Everyone who was alive during Jonah's visit would have been dead by the time the destruction came.

Nahum was written against Ninevah sometime after 663 BC, at least 80 years after Jonah preached.

So "they" who were destroyed is not the same "they" who heard Jonah.

correct.....:thumbsup: it was not sustained...but temporal:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

steaver

Don't we all?

No...all of us do not...if you mean team anti cal jihad...yes they all do:laugh:

Is having an agenda some sort of sin here?

I believe it is sin.

Right now my agenda is to expose the flaws of Calvinism

.

That is why I posted what I did and how I did it:wavey:

Now according to your beliefs you should know that it is God who has formed me to do this, He is the potter, I'm just the clay.

I do not know God's design for you. But for those who mock and scoff at Divine truth ...it will not go well with them according to scripture.

Multitudes are going to welcome Divine truth....multitudes of religious persons will despise, wonder, and perish....

The scriptural testimony is clear on that....I would never entertain the idea of joking about truth....I believe that is a mark of the unregenerate....so I would advise against any such thoughts.


I believe team anti cal Jihad...violates this section daily;


14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

If I oppose Calvinism to the day I die it will be because God made me do it, correct?

No...it will be because of a love of sin...instead of a love for the truth

So don't fight with God brother!

This is the kind of foolish light hearted comment I was speaking about...I do not joke this way......God is not mocked, what you sow you reap.

 

[JamesL]

correct.....:thumbsup: it was not sustained...but temporal:wavey:

Depends on what you mean by "sustained" and how you think those who were destroyed would relate to those who heard Jonah preach

It could be argued that British religious influence is not being sustained, 130 years after Spurgeon was alive. Would the current lack of interest in religion negate the reality of Spurgeon's faith?

That's about the time lapse between Jonah and the destruction of Ninevah


I'm just trying to get where you're coming from with your view that the repentance wasn't sustained in Ninevah, and how it relates to individual people

 

[Iconoclast]

Depends on what you mean by "sustained" and how you think those who were destroyed would relate to those who heard Jonah preach

It could be argued that British religious influence is not being sustained, 130 years after Spurgeon was alive. Would the current lack of interest in religion negate the reality of Spurgeon's faith?

That's about the time lapse between Jonah and the destruction of Ninevah


I'm just trying to get where you're coming from with your view that the repentance wasn't sustained in Ninevah, and how it relates to individual people

On one of the Jonah threads people were offering foolish ideas that are biblically unfounded.....about God's love for all persons etc.....the historical situation did not go past that generation....like In Spurgeons time, or the great awakening, or the puritan colonies......many times God has skipped over generations.....I do not think there have been many sustained periods of revival.....I believe those times are yet future...as we might still be the "early church"

 

[steaver]

I do not know God's design for you. But for those who mock and scoff at Divine truth ...it will not go well with them according to scripture.

Multitudes are going to welcome Divine truth....multitudes of religious persons will despise, wonder, and perish....

The scriptural testimony is clear on that....I would never entertain the idea of joking about truth....I believe that is a mark of the unregenerate....so I would advise against any such thoughts.

I believe you are confusing Scripture and the Interpretations of Calvinism. Surely you are not calling the non inspired writings of Calvinist "Divine Truth" are ye??

I reject Calvinist writers interpretations and applications of much Scripture. I do not reject the Scripture itself. Have you blurred the lines here?

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe you are confusing Scripture and the Interpretations of Calvinism. Surely you are not calling the non inspired writings of Calvinist "Divine Truth" are ye??

I reject Calvinist writers interpretations and applications of much Scripture. I do not reject the Scripture itself. Have you blurred the lines here?

Jesus taught what we today describe as Calvinism.....it is taught all through scripture......because Calvin , Augustine, or millions of other Christians have seen the same truths does not "blur "any lines.

You reject scripturally teaching very often from what I can see. Notice.....there are hardly any Arminian theology books, or confessions of faith except by odd groups in church history...

Notice no non cal can sustain a scriptural case without getting shredded:wavey:

You and the others just enjoy being contentious...not really searching out truth...you just like the contention...

 

[JamesL]

Notice no non cal can sustain a scriptural case without getting shredded.

In fairness, that is an assessment reached through subjective bias, just like when your opponents say that Calvinists can't hold their own in a debate.

Similar to what I wrote about someone's use of the word "solid" when referring to another poster's thoughts.

Solid is just a synonym for: that which agrees with my view

Just the same, anyone who disagrees with my view gets "shredded" by those who agree with me

 

[steaver]

Jesus taught what we today describe as Calvinism.....it is taught all through scripture......because Calvin , Augustine, or millions of other Christians have seen the same truths does not "blur "any lines.

You reject scripturally teaching very often from what I can see. Notice.....there are hardly any Arminian theology books, or confessions of faith except by odd groups in church history...

Notice no non cal can sustain a scriptural case without getting shredded:wavey:

You and the others just enjoy being contentious...not really searching out truth...you just like the contention...

Are you holding to Calvinistic writings (interpretations and explanations) outside of the bible itself are Divine Truth? Really?

 

[Iconoclast]

In fairness, that is an assessment reached through subjective bias, just like when your opponents say that Calvinists can't hold their own in a debate.

Similar to what I wrote about someone's use of the word "solid" when referring to another poster's thoughts.

Solid is just a synonym for: that which agrees with my view

Just the same, anyone who disagrees with my view gets "shredded" by those who agree with me

I am not concerned with "fairness"....or tolerance, or any politically correct buzz word......like years ago that senator was asked to define obscenity...he said I know it when I see it.

If you stop what you are doing and print out the posts of AA, Reformed, Rippon, Kyred, Tom Butler, Con 1,JBH28,and many others ...then print out the responses they get in return you will see very clearly what I am saying...we do not need a poll or anything...it is so obvious it is shocking.

Of course I agree with them as they are providing solid food.....we have disagreements among ourselves....they would not own everything I say and visa versa....but overall we are going on the same path.....

the others either make novelities up, take cheap drive by shots, or just seek to instigate everyday......you can see it if you take the time to look...

They do it everyday....you have already seen it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Are you holding to Calvinistic writings (interpretations and explanations) outside of the bible itself are Divine Truth? Really?

Jesus, the Apostles , and Prophets...all wrote scripture last time I checked...
This kind of ignorant post I have no patience for...

here is what I said;

Jesus taught what we today describe as Calvinism.....it is taught all through scripture

you are out of bullets, so you post this foolishness...nice try:wavey:

 

[JamesL]

It's not a politically correct issue at all. I say "in fairness" simply to say that both sides do the same thing.

I could have said - in fairness, the pot always calls the kettle black.
Or - in fairness, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I was simply noting that people on both sides of every debate claim the victory. In the minds of those who agree with you, you shred your opponents with a silly "thumbs up" emoticon. That's all they need to see from you, and they say you argued with overpowering logic.

Same for those on the other side

 

[Winman]

With all this shredding going on, everyone seems to have forgotten John's (evangelist6589) question.

If non-regenerated men are unable to repent or believe, then how did an entire city of perhaps a million people all repent and believe God? The book of Jonah tells us that the city, from the greatest to the least of them "believed God" and "repented" in sackcloth and ashes.

He is asking the Calvinists to explain this, because it confuses him. Did God regenerate every single person in Nineveh? If not, how did they all repent and believe?

So, why don't you Calvinists give him an answer?

 

[RLBosley]

First, and foremost, Jonah is not about the People of Nineveh. In the storyline of the text they are secondary, they (along with the sailors) serve as a counterpoint to Jonah.

The Book of Jonah is primarily about God and His grace.

Ironically, Jonah--the Prophet of God--refuses to do God's will. He doesn't acknowledge God as he should, but the sailors and the Ninevites wind up doing so.

Secondly, what Jonah preaches to Nineveh can hardly be called a "gospel." He preaches "forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown," which is the ancient-day equivalent of "God hates F@gs..." There is no good news in Jonah's message, there is no revealing of God to them--His grace and His mercy, and Jonah's message is intended to leave Nineveh in darkness... (if you doubt this then answer why he went up onto the plan to watch the destruction he thought was coming...).

Up until the very end of the book, Jonah is defiant. In the beginning of the book he's actively defiant, and in the end of the book he's passive-aggressively defiant. But, he is defiant nonetheless.

The book, ultimately, leaves us to answer why the Ninevites repented. They were preached a deficient, Yahweh-absent "gospel," why or how did they repent? In the end, their repentance is not viewed as salvific; it is only a temporary stay of God's judgment (read the history of Assyria).

Does God have mercy on the People of Nineveh? Yes. Why? They repent. How do they repent having been given a deficient Gospel? It's only because God can and does use deficient Gospels to change people. But, it isn't the Gospel that is the thing here (for there was no "good news"), it's God's grace in bringing repentance to Nineveh. Why did God desire to show compassion on a city (and a nation, really) that is known to be gruesomely horrible? To demonstrate to Jonah that salvation isn't ultimately limited to Israel, that God can and does save people outside of Israel. Also, we see that God has compassion on sinners.

The entire episode reminds us that God will have mercy on those whom He chooses to have mercy on and that He will have compassion on those whom He will have compassion on. And, at times, He will do so through our efforts and, at other times, He will do so in spite of our efforts.

The Archangel

:thumbs:

He enjoys being confused evidently....the only thing Arminian in the book of Jonah was the great fish...as soon as Jonah said salvation is of the Lord...the fish spit him out faster than those on BB resist the grace of God as expressed in scripture:laugh::wavey:

Now that's funny! :laugh:

With all this shredding going on, everyone seems to have forgotten John's (evangelist6589) question.

If non-regenerated men are unable to repent or believe, then how did an entire city of perhaps a million people all repent and believe God? The book of Jonah tells us that the city, from the greatest to the least of them "believed God" and "repented" in sackcloth and ashes.

He is asking the Calvinists to explain this, because it confuses him. Did God regenerate every single person in Nineveh? If not, how did they all repent and believe?

So, why don't you Calvinists give him an answer?

It seems to me that the question has been answered.

There really doesn't seem to be much evidence that they repented in a justifying way, merely repenting so that they would not yet be destroyed. Also, there is nothing that demands that every single person was repentant. Hyperbole is used often in the OT literature, especially in the prophets. Also if the entire city was truly repentant, why would the king of the city then need to order the people to repent in 3:8? But again, as was pointing out, this is a narrative with very little information so it's dangerous to assume things that are not stated.

Speaking of which, where are you getting the "perhaps a million" people bit? And some are saying 120,000 children in the city? Jonah 4 says 120,000 persons or people not children. Is it because of the "cannot distinguish between their right and their left" part that it's assumed those 120,000 are children?