Calvinists help me understand

[Yeshua1]

I see. Even John 6:44 is under debate as to it means draw or drag to salvation. The NKJV says draw however some Reformed authors say the text should really mean "drag" which makes no sense to me as it says draw. Not sure what the NIV/ESV say on this one.

But my then question would be this.

Why would God will more than a Billion people to Hell as he has not granted faith and repentance?

God did not actively Will that they stay lost and go to hell, as He is permitting them to stay in their own sins...

Every lost person is literally having God say to them "Thy will be done"

 

[RLBosley]

I see. Even John 6:44 is under debate as to it means draw or drag to salvation. The NKJV says draw however some Reformed authors say the text should really mean "drag" which makes no sense to me as it says draw. Not sure what the NIV/ESV say on this one.

But my then question would be this.

Why would God will more than a Billion people to Hell as he has not granted faith and repentance?

Regarding John 6: drag or draw, it doesn't matter. The fact is it is the sovereign act of the Father that brings (in lieu of the other words) people to Christ. The Father draws people to the Son, they are given to the Son, they all come to the Son, they all believe, they are all secured, and they are all raised at the last day, and not one is lost. The only two options are universalism or limited, particular redemption.

Regarding your question: I have no idea. God does not say other than what Romans 9 says that God is enduring the vessels prepared for wrath in order to make known his grace and glory on the vessels of mercy.

 

[The Archangel]

Well, I can believe the Spirit, which Jesus said would teach me, or I can believe your versions. What would you do?

Ah... I see what you're doing here.

Your interpretation: Spirit-led. My interpretation: Hopelessly flawed. I see...the Calvinist's interpretation can't possibly be right because he's a Calvinist...

It really is a shame you don't avail yourself to what you might be able to learn while posting here....

The Archangel

 

[Reformed]

The reason so many Arminians would agree with Westminster is that both are essentially the same view.

I've said it over and over, that if we concoct any scenario of a man's faith and works, both Calvinists and Arminians will agree as to his eternal destiny. And that is every instance, every scenario, without any exceptions.

I know you believe this to be true, but it is not. If it was as simple as you suggest then Pelagius and Augustine would have figured it out 1600 years ago.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ah... I see what you're doing here.

Your interpretation: Spirit-led. My interpretation: Hopelessly flawed. I see...the Calvinist's interpretation can't possibly be right because he's a Calvinist...

It really is a shame you don't avail yourself to what you might be able to learn while posting here....

The Archangel

Throw your education away, no need to (even try to) enunciate. Its all pointless since you obviously.......LOL.

 

[kyredneck]

1 And as he passed by, he saw a man blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Rabbi, who sinned, this man, or his parents, that he should be born blind?3 Jesus answered, Neither did this man sin, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. Jn 9

Anyone here have a problem with the reason given as to WHY this man was born blind? I don't. It was so that Christ could show the mighty works of God with him.

39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet:
40 for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, a greater than Jonah is here. Mt 12

I personally don't have a problem that the whole intent the story of Jonah and Nineveh could be all about the works of God being be made manifest with Christ making the above declaration.

But I'm a hyper-Cal, you know.

 

[JamesL]

I know you believe this to be true, but it is not. If it was as simple as you suggest then Pelagius and Augustine would have figured it out 1600 years ago.

Sounds cute, but it doesn't hold water.

Go ahead and concoct a scenario of a man, his faith, and his works...or lack of any of those.

Then work through both the Calvinist and Arminian systems, and determine the man's eternal destiny.

Go ahead and do it. Do you know your opponents' views enough? Are you willing to give it a shot?

Just like Pelagius and Augustine, everybody's so caught up un one detail that they can't even see that they're saying the same thing.

 

[preacher4truth]

I know you believe this to be true, but it is not. If it was as simple as you suggest then Pelagius and Augustine would have figured it out 1600 years ago.

You're correct! :thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

1 And as he passed by, he saw a man blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Rabbi, who sinned, this man, or his parents, that he should be born blind?3 Jesus answered, Neither did this man sin, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. Jn 9

Anyone here have a problem with the reason given as to WHY this man was born blind? I don't. It was so that Christ could show the mighty works of God with him.

39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet:
40 for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, a greater than Jonah is here. Mt 12

I personally don't have a problem that the whole intent the story of Jonah and Nineveh could be all about the works of God being be made manifest with Christ making the above declaration.

But I'm a hyper-Cal, you know.

Well done brother. My sisters life with Cerebral Palsy left me asking the same questions--till I studied this scripture & realized that the works of God should be made manifest in her. Praise Him for that understanding. :applause:

 

[preacher4truth]

Sounds cute, but it doesn't hold water.

Go ahead and concoct a scenario of a man, his faith, and his works...or lack of any of those.

Then work through both the Calvinist and Arminian systems, and determine the man's eternal destiny.

Go ahead and do it. Do you know your opponents' views enough? Are you willing to give it a shot?

Just like Pelagius and Augustine, everybody's so caught up un one detail that they can't even see that they're saying the same thing.

None of these are saying 'the same thing' Jim, so in this you are clearly in error. Your argument is purely subjective human reason (which is lending you a large amount of unfounded benefit of doubt) and thus is filled with human pride, devoid of eternal truth, and lacking God's revelation via His Word. The vast majority of your posts go said route. :thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

But I'm a hyper-Cal, you know.

hmm-mm---a manifestation of all things evil I'm sure--:laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

None of these are saying 'the same thing' Jim, so in this you are clearly in error. Your argument is purely subjective human reason (which is lending you a large amount of unfounded benefit of doubt) and thus is filled with human pride, devoid of eternal truth, and lacking God's revelation via His Word. The vast majority of your posts go said route. :thumbs:

Ouch....dont candy coat anything Rob, tell us what you really think!

 

[JamesL]

You're correct! :thumbs:

Then try it. Its an open challenge to anyone from either camp.

I will publically apologize, and eat my words, if anyone is able to refute my claim with facts.

Just saying I'm wrong doesn't prove anything, except that you're probably terrified that I'm right.

 

[Winman]

Then try it. Its an open challenge to anyone from either camp.

I will publically apologize, and eat my words, if anyone is able to refute my claim with facts.

Just saying I'm wrong doesn't prove anything, except that you're probably terrified that I'm right.

James, maybe I'm slow, but I don't understand this challenge and what you are saying. Could you put it into simple language exactly what you are saying?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Yeshua1]

Sounds cute, but it doesn't hold water.

Go ahead and concoct a scenario of a man, his faith, and his works...or lack of any of those.

Then work through both the Calvinist and Arminian systems, and determine the man's eternal destiny.

Go ahead and do it. Do you know your opponents' views enough? Are you willing to give it a shot?

Just like Pelagius and Augustine, everybody's so caught up un one detail that they can't even see that they're saying the same thing.

So John Calvin and Charles Finney were both saying the same thing?

 

[preacher4truth]

Then try it. Its an open challenge to anyone from either camp.

I will publically apologize, and eat my words, if anyone is able to refute my claim with facts.

Just saying I'm wrong doesn't prove anything, except that you're probably terrified that I'm right.

lol...your claims are refuted day in and out, and now you say 'all of a sudden' you'll apologize when some refutes you? LOL!!!!!! :laugh:

Arrogance at its apex.

 

[preacher4truth]

So John Calvin and Charles Finney were both saying the same thing?

Bingo!!!!! :thumbsup:

 

[JamesL]

So John Calvin and Charles Finney were both saying the same thing?

In the end, yes. They would both agree on the eternal destiny of each and every man throughout history.

Then the would get all caught up in the philosophy if how it all works out, and they would forget all about the fact that they agree.

I've posted this numerous times over the past 8 months or so. I remember once that EWF took note, offered that he wished someone would shred my claim to pieces.

He even went so far as to mention that particular thread, and asked if anyone would go tackle it.

 

[Reformed]

In the end, yes. They would both agree on the eternal destiny of each and every man throughout history.

Then the would get all caught up in the philosophy if how it all works out, and they would forget all about the fact that they agree.

I've posted this numerous times over the past 8 months or so. I remember once that EWF took note, offered that he wished someone would shred my claim to pieces.

He even went so far as to mention that particular thread, and asked if anyone would go tackle it.

OK, James. What is it EXACTLY that you wish to compare about the two systems? That they both arrive at the same conclusion? To make it a fair discussion, please put forth your premise.

 

[JonC]

In the end, yes. They would both agree on the eternal destiny of each and every man throughout history.

Then the would get all caught up in the philosophy if how it all works out, and they would forget all about the fact that they agree.

I've posted this numerous times over the past 8 months or so. I remember once that EWF took note, offered that he wished someone would shred my claim to pieces.

He even went so far as to mention that particular thread, and asked if anyone would go tackle it.

I don't think that anyone here would argue with your statement (just kidding :smilewinkgrin. But you are right. In the end those who are found in Christ are saved....all agree on that. It's the how and why that causes friction.